Americans Own Less Stuff, and That’s Reason to Be Nervous • Hacker News Board

Re: Americans Own Less Stuff, and That’s Reason to Be Nervous

#161

Post by digikata » Tue, Aug 14, 2018, 5:10 PM UTC

ashelmire wrote: post #149

digikata wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can rent fridges right now, few people elect to do it...

Because it's more expensive over a relatively short period, perhaps?

I suspect for long term goods that are below some cost, it's just cheaper for people to own them vs renting over the lifetime of the device. A corporation will tend to finance the capital cost of the good if it's renting, then needs to pass on the interest costs of those goods to the renters. On top of that a rental corp also need to maintain techs to install/remove appliances. It all adds up to higher cost to rent than own in this area.

Re: Americans Own Less Stuff, and That’s Reason to Be Nervous

#162

Post by munificent » Tue, Aug 14, 2018, 5:10 PM UTC

elicash wrote: post #37

> The nation was based on the notion that property ownership gives individuals a stake in the system. Why is the fact that people without property were not given the right to vote because they "didn't have a stake" as our nation was founded being lifted up as a good thing? It's such a bizarre thing to say that this ideology was a good one. The author can't really believe that renters have less a stake in the system a…

The author isn't talking about voting rights, they are talking about incentives.

When you own property, you care more about the place where that property exists because what affects the surroundings directly affects the value of your possession. That incentivizes you to care about and invest in your neighborhood, community, state, and country.

If you aren't tied to the place, it's easier to just jump ship and say "not my problem" when something goes awry. You have fewer incentives to put effort into long-term projects that improve the community since you're less likely to be there to reap the benefits.

In other words, renters are less likely to plant trees, but a neighborhood with trees is better for us all over the long term.

Re: Americans Own Less Stuff, and That’s Reason to Be Nervous

#163

Post by lordCarbonFiber » Tue, Aug 14, 2018, 5:11 PM UTC

Spooky23 wrote: post #105

amelius wrote: post #6

It may be better for the environment to not own stuff, but instead use services. For example, take a fridge. If I buy a fridge, the company I buy it from has an incentive to make it break in N years, so they can sell me a new one, i.e. "planned obsolescence". However, if I subscribe to a service to keep my food and beverages at a certain temperature, then the company has the incentive to make the fridge last as long…

That’s a perspective that is common these days, but awful in practice. I don’t want to be a tenant, period — it’s almost never a better deal or value for me. I don’t need to pay a premium for the overhead and financing of a “cold food as a service” company while getting a level of service that meets the most minimum standard possible. What we are missing today is meaningful competition. You can’t buy an appliance tha…

The only way you can possibly justify that sort of view point is the implicit hard cap on what you're willing to pay. You can't find "quality" (in appliances, in shoes, in just about anything) because you're not willing to pay for it.

Re: Americans Own Less Stuff, and That’s Reason to Be Nervous

#164

Post by avgDev » Tue, Aug 14, 2018, 5:11 PM UTC

eanzenberg wrote: post #129

magduf wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A 16-year-old car will kill you in a crash that a new one will let you walk away from. That's one big, important factor in the new vs. used debate. There's also the factor of how it's going to affect your job and life if your car breaks down. A 2-decade-old car is going to break down at some inopportune time, like it or not, even with the best maintenance.

Fear monger. A 2002 car still has safety features such as airbags, seatbelts, anti-lock brakes that a 2018 will also have.

Now many more cars have curtain airbags. Safety standards have improved over the years. Crumple zones have improved. Now many cars come with back up cameras, back up sensors, line keep assist, emergency breaking.

While, 2002 car may be relatively safe, I would still prefer to have the safest car on the road. Usually it will require less servicing than an old car and be more dependable too.

Re: Americans Own Less Stuff, and That’s Reason to Be Nervous

#165

Post by chipotle_coyote » Tue, Aug 14, 2018, 5:11 PM UTC

AdmiralAsshat wrote: post #49

Oh goody, another article telling me why everything I do as a Millennial is wrong. Here's what we were told as children: "My gosh, you always want more toys, more comics, more videogames. Don't you ever get enough? What's wrong with you!" As teenagers/young adults: "Look at all this crap you've collected over the years, taking up all this room, and you're barely an adult! You'll never have space for all this when you…

While I don't know that I agree with Tyler Cowen's original article, I don't think this is a particularly fair reading of it. Should we never question whether a societal trend is good or bad, because doing so can never come from any place other than "let's wave our canes at the younger generation?"

Re: Americans Own Less Stuff, and That’s Reason to Be Nervous

#166

Post by criddell » Tue, Aug 14, 2018, 5:12 PM UTC

twothamendment wrote: post #119

ilamont wrote: post #15

Amazon’s Kindle and other methods of online reading have revolutionized how Americans consume text. Fifteen years ago, people typically owned the books and magazines they were reading. Much less so now. The statements about books are not accurate. Ebook sales are still just a fraction of print sales in many genres - NPD data indicates ebooks are less than 20% of total unit sales for nonfiction, children, and young ad…

There are many things I like about Ebooks, but until I can lend it to a friend or sell it when I'm done with it, I'm done with them. I can buy a used (and sometimes new) paper copy cheaper than an Ebook and when I'm done I can decided if I want to keep it sell it or give it away.

Ebooks have too many advantages that I can't give them up. For example, I can make the text as large as I need and for many of us, that's a killer feature.

I am sympathetic to the argument against DRM though. It seems criminal that I can't leave my ebook collection to somebody after I die.

Re: Americans Own Less Stuff, and That’s Reason to Be Nervous

#167

Post by crazygringo » Tue, Aug 14, 2018, 5:13 PM UTC

This is beyond ridiculous. The crux of the article is:

> Each of these changes is beneficial, yet I worry that Americans are, slowly but surely, losing their connection to the idea of private ownership. The nation was based on the notion that property ownership gives individuals a stake in the system. It set Americans apart from feudal peasants, taught us how property rights and incentives operate, and was a kind of training for future entrepreneurship.

Whether you own music or rent it doesn't give you a stake in the system, nor does owning a car vs using public transport.

What gives you a stake is your net worth -- whether in a bank account, investments, land, a house, a company, or several.

And being able to rent services instead of buy permanent goods is an economic gain, allowing you to deploy your savings in a more targeted way toward whatever really matters the most to you.

If we want to be nervous, let's investigate inequality of net worth and the policies that lead to that -- and not be distracted by something totally irrelevant like whether I buy or license my books.

Re: Americans Own Less Stuff, and That’s Reason to Be Nervous

#168

Post by ashelmire » Tue, Aug 14, 2018, 5:13 PM UTC

vcolano wrote: post #20

I'd agree young Americans are less interested in owning their media and there does seem to be a general trend away from materialism and towards spending any extra income on experiences over objects. However, I reject the notion that the younger generations are less interested in owning property. Young people do want to have a stake in the system, but most places young people are living (especially where they're movin…

Yeah, this is a "blame the millenials" article in disguise. The problem is that we're pretty broke compared to our parents, because the big purchases (housing, education, cars) cost way more relative to our incomes. The elder dev sitting across from me bought his house for 10k around 1989. Now every house in that neighborhood costs ~350-400k (and it's one of the bigger and better ones).

Re: Americans Own Less Stuff, and That’s Reason to Be Nervous

#169

Post by avgDev » Tue, Aug 14, 2018, 5:14 PM UTC

magduf wrote: post #106

ryandvm wrote: post #12

As someone who has given away a couple thousand dollars worth of crappy music from the 80s and 90s, I can say for certain that I am glad I don't own it anymore. A Spotify subscription that allows me to listen to practically any song that was ever recorded is of far more utility than a pathetically limited personal music collection.

Why on earth would you pay $ per month to have access to music you like, when you can just have it in MP3/Ogg form, stored on multiple devices (PC, phone, backup HD) and be able to listen to it at any time you want for free?

Because I don't have time to search for new music, go buy albums, back it up, buy storage etc.

Spotify is great. I can listen to charts/viral music from different countries. I can usually find music from other countries as well if I need to.

Re: Americans Own Less Stuff, and That’s Reason to Be Nervous

#170

Post by the_watcher » Tue, Aug 14, 2018, 5:14 PM UTC

twothamendment wrote: post #119

ilamont wrote: post #15

Amazon’s Kindle and other methods of online reading have revolutionized how Americans consume text. Fifteen years ago, people typically owned the books and magazines they were reading. Much less so now. The statements about books are not accurate. Ebook sales are still just a fraction of print sales in many genres - NPD data indicates ebooks are less than 20% of total unit sales for nonfiction, children, and young ad…

There are many things I like about Ebooks, but until I can lend it to a friend or sell it when I'm done with it, I'm done with them. I can buy a used (and sometimes new) paper copy cheaper than an Ebook and when I'm done I can decided if I want to keep it sell it or give it away.

You can lend many Kindle books (source: I do it semi-regularly). Many public libraries also offer ebooks.

Your point about paper copies often being cheaper is definitely true, and for books I plan to re-read, refer to, etc., I now default to this. But one of the reasons I like my Kindle is that I can take an entire library with me on a month long trip, change my mind about what I want to read, buy a new book if it comes out while I'm gone, and sample things I'd otherwise need to go into a bookstore to find.