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Apple Removes Infowars from Podcast Directory

wsj.com

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Re: Apple Removes Infowars from Podcast Directory

#161

Post by mistermann »

eksemplar wrote: post #144
xoa wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To call that "fairly easy" seems a little overly glib maybe? I mean just look at the HN comments on this, or the comments on the WSJ article or the Ars version. Lots of people have internalized that banning people is "censorship" and nearly always wrong, and that the "right answer" to bad information is more information. Of course that framework for dealing with info attacks doesn't really address what to do when the…

I think it’s fairly easy. It’s not my fault people have the wrong assumption that free speech meant you could say what you want without consequences. Part of why free speech work is because adults accept responsibility for their actions, and part of that is living with the consequences of how you behave. When you offend people for a living, people are going to get offended and then they genuinely won’t want to listen…

He is very clearly talking about something broader and more nuanced/complex, a "marketplace of ideas", yet you've twice misinterpreted that as a simplistic appeal to a pedantic interpretation of "free speech as defined by the US Government".

Dismissing any discussion on this topic as simply "you have the right to free speech, but you're not guaranteed a platform" in the age of the internet, with absolutely no consideration whatsoever for larger long term considerations and risks displays that the speaker is not righteously unbiased. Sure, they're undoubtedly more correct than Alex Jones and his ilk, but they're not fully willing to support a marketplace of ideas on principle. If your ideological team is winning, this is a natural tendency, but consider a scenario where your team isn't - then what?

From where I sit, this is a good demonstration of the nature, difficulty, and importance of the problem we're dealing with in our complex societies.

Re: Apple Removes Infowars from Podcast Directory

#162

Post by davvolun »

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #73
paulgb wrote: post #35

I agree with the comments that it's their store and they can do what they want with it, and Jones actively uses his platform to bully individuals so I'm not disappointed to see it diminished. That said, the trend of centralization of Podcasts worries me a bit. Podcasts were one of the few real success stories of an open syndication format that allowed an ecosystem of podcast apps to flourish. I've noticed a trend whe…

My main peeve with this is Google Podcasts which still doesn't allow you to subscribe to an RSS podcast. It solely allows you to listen to podcasts which Google is granted permission to upload to their own servers. As a podcast owner, I'm not comfortable agreeing to Google's terms, and have opted not to participate. To which I sometimes get complaints. I don't understand why Google refuses to accept standard podcasti…

After Google Listen (and a long line of similar shutdowns -- Google Reader, Google Wave, GChat/Voice/Hangouts/Allo), why would you use Google Podcasts anyway?

I'm not affiliated in any way, but Pocket Casts has been running for years and is an excellent option on both iOS and Android. I know there are some other good options on Android as well, if Pockets Casts isn't your thing for some reason.

Re: Apple Removes Infowars from Podcast Directory

#163

Post by iamdave »

mistermann wrote: post #155
pjc50 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Serious question: how do you make sure that none of this stuff you're listening to leaks into your perception of the real world? Are you sure you're just regarding it as some weird dystopian fiction, like Scarfolk or the SCP foundation, and not letting it affect your real politics?

It's a shame this is getting downvoted because it's a good point, and the very same can be said about late night comedians and their "I'm just a comedian bro, you expect me to be accurate and consistent, lol" bits on the news of the day. These things do have an effect on perception of reality.

I admit I wasn't at all surprised to see it getting downvoted so heavily-I was not one of them I as I agree; it's a good question-even if, directed at me-I'm not inclined to go through all of the setup and groundwork necessary to give a response in the affirmative or otherwise.

Being willing to critique ones own body politic is a healthy thing. My lack of surprise comes from this strange phenomenon going about that presumes anything short of full-fledged vociferous condemnation or admonishment must automatically mean harbored complicity and is worth the harshest rebuke or silent dissent in the form of drive by downvotes without much contemplation or substantive discussion in the slightest.

Re: Apple Removes Infowars from Podcast Directory

#164

Post by mrguyorama »

nailer wrote: post #154
Eric_WVGG wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The only way to prevent dark ages beliefs is to shine light on them. This is the sort of principled belief I used to hold that I’m no longer sure holds up to scrutiny. There's always been a fringe that was willing to believe anything. But how do you call something like Infowars “fringe” when it’s on the same “network” as NPR and CNN podcasts? Placement like that legitimizes Infowars. That “light shining” on Infowar…

[flagged]

Trying to put CNN on the same (low) level as InfoWars is disgusting and a deliberate misrepresentation of fact.

Re: Apple Removes Infowars from Podcast Directory

#165

Post by jessriedel »

baldfat wrote: post #112
jessriedel wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that private stores can do what they want does not mean that they should do what they want or that consumers shouldn't demand otherwise. More generally, not all bad behavior is or should be illegal. The fact that the first amendment only legally applies to the government does not mean that free speech as a concept doesn't have moral force on other organizations. For instance, we expect universities to act as…

Freedom of Speech != Speech without Consequences. I can say what I want at work but I can get fired for that speech. Same thing you can loss your advertisers and your platforms for the same speech. I grew up in the last house in Bethel, CT before Newtown (Sand Hook), heck my mom went to elementary school in Sandy Hook. Friends of mine had children in the school. People don't know how crazy it was the first 6 months t…

> Freedom of Speech != Speech without Consequences. I can say what I want at work but I can get fired for that speech.

You should only be fired if that speech directly interferes with the performance of that job, e.g., if the cashier says offensive thing to the customers or an employee tries to convince their coworkers to shirk their duties. Political opinions that are separate from an employee's job that the employee expresses on their own time should not be punished.

Free speech is about cordoning off a realm of ideas that is free from reprisals in meat space. If you don't understand why this is important, and applies to individuals contemplating economic reprisals just as much as to government incarceration, you should read "On Liberty" by John Stuart Mills, the classic canonical defense of this. It's only 100 pages and available free.

https://socialsciences.mcmaster.ca/econ/ugcm/3ll3/mill/liber...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Liberty

The question of whether businesses should refrain from firing employee with unpopular opinions because the businesses fear anti-free-speech punishment from their customers (e.g., a boycott of a grocery store because the shift manager is pro-choice) is complicated, but it is very similar to the sorts of moral trade-offs made in the personal sphere all the time: if a group of students are being mean to Alice for no good reason and they will shun me if I stay friends with her, am I morally bound to stay friends with her? Yes, there is a presumption that I should not punish Alice unjustly, but there is also a limit on the size of negative consequences I am morally bound to endure on behalf of Alice. Likewise, businesses generally ought to refrain from firing employees who tweet unpopular opinions for free speech reasons, but it is unreasonable to expect businesses to take unlimited economic losses on behalf of such employees due to anti-free-speech customers.

Re: Apple Removes Infowars from Podcast Directory

#166

Post by rbanffy »

paulgb wrote: post #35

I agree with the comments that it's their store and they can do what they want with it, and Jones actively uses his platform to bully individuals so I'm not disappointed to see it diminished. That said, the trend of centralization of Podcasts worries me a bit. Podcasts were one of the few real success stories of an open syndication format that allowed an ecosystem of podcast apps to flourish. I've noticed a trend whe…

RSS is still open. You can still host your RSS and your media. What Apple did is to make it harder to find. And that's it.

Re: Apple Removes Infowars from Podcast Directory

#167

Post by rbanffy »

jessriedel wrote: post #158
pjc50 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

""Debate"" needs to have a minimum legitimacy requirement to be taken seriously. You can't just make up a string of provably false stuff and use it as a pretext for harassment, Sandy Hook passim.

No, there doesn't need to be an minimum reasonableness to speech for it to be protected. The ravings of a lunatic are and should be protected. The issue of where to draw the line between speech/persuasion/debate and harassment/threats/shouting-fire-in-a-crowded-theatre is an important thorny one, but it is completely separate from the quality or reasonableness of legitimacy of the speech. I don't know anything about…

It's not like Apple is deleting his media. Apple is deleting the pointers, as they don't want to be associated with him (which is perfectly reasonable - I wouldn't want that either).

His right to free speech is not infringed. He is still free to host the RSS feed and the media files however he sees fit.

Re: Apple Removes Infowars from Podcast Directory

#168

Post by mcphage »

resters wrote: post #113

Anyone of average intelligence who spends 30-60 seconds listening to Alex Jones will quickly realize that Jones suffers from some kind of mental illness or personality disorder, and that there is nothing of interest or value to learn from his rants. Those who ignore the obvious signs and still choose to listen to it do so for their own, identity-driven or emotional reasons. This is the same process that causes humans…

> Anyone of average intelligence who spends 30-60 seconds listening to Alex Jones will quickly realize that Jones suffers from some kind of mental illness or personality disorder, and that there is nothing of interest or value to learn from his rants.

If that were the case, he wouldn't have the popularity that he has, he would be just another rando ranting on a street corner. But that's not the case—the fact is, there are many people who spend time listening to him, who think that there is something of value to learn from his rants. So just shining a light on him isn't sufficient.

Sometimes, when you have an injury, you can just ignore it and let your body heal itself. And sometimes, when you have an injury, you need to be more proactive about recovery.

Re: Apple Removes Infowars from Podcast Directory

#169

Post by iamdave »

wu-ikkyu wrote: post #123
rounce wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only problem with that is when the other uses the rights you have afforded them to either infringe or incite infringement upon your freedoms.

What do you mean?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imminent_lawless_action

Re: Apple Removes Infowars from Podcast Directory

#170

Post by rbanffy »

paulgb wrote: post #150
ihuman wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The iTunes podcast directory still uses the original RSS feeds. You can use this bookmarklet to get the RSS feed from your browser https://github.com/djm/uncover-itunes-rss-bookmarklet

Thanks for sharing this! I was able to subscribe to a podcast with an otherwise-hidden RSS feed.

This is really useful. I'll try it in a couple minutes.
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