Facebook Gave Device Makers Deep Access to Data on Users and Friends • Hacker News Board

Re: Facebook Gave Device Makers Deep Access to Data on Users and Friends

#161

Post by cryptoz » Mon, Jun 04, 2018, 4:20 PM UTC

zaroth wrote: post #156

This appears to be an API to integrate Facebook chrome and functionality into a mobile OS UI; > “An Apple spokesman said the company relied on private access to Facebook data for features that enabled users to post photos to the social network without opening the Facebook app, among other things. Apple said its phones no longer had such access to Facebook as of last September. ... > Usher Lieberman, a BlackBerry spok…

Your entire post boils down to, "just trust the billionaires!"

No, we won't. They are liars and cheaters, the lot of them, and we aren't going to trust them any more. They said in court "we didn't do that" so then you post it here that everything is okay, but I don't trust it. Not one bit. None of us do, or should, trust what those companies say.

Mark Zuckerberg is a liar. The whole concept of, "We're doing the right thing with your data, just trust us" is ridiculous. He already called you and I and every single one of us a literal "dumb fuck" for trusting Facebook with the data. Mark Zuckerberg would be banned from HN for vile language if he were here. Clearly, we are not meant to trust him or any of them at their word. They lie and they know it.

NO, zaroth, I do not believe a single part of any of the quotes you wrote. I don't believe them. We also know that Zuckerberg was intentionally misleading or lying in recent EU appearances.

> How else was the UI rendering your Facebook Feed?!

This kind of incredulous, "we must have Facebook on our phones, what else were we supposed to do?!" is silly. Facebook and these partners clearly overstepped their bounds.

> But the NYT apparently thinks this is nefarious in some way.

What? You then quoted the NYT listing a series of facts. Nowhere does the NYT say anything like nefarious or anything like that. You are making things up.

> ... fake controversy ...

Did you just call this whole thing fake? Like, the controversy itself? It's not fake..... This HN thread's existence proves the controversy is real. This stuff is not fake.

Re: Facebook Gave Device Makers Deep Access to Data on Users and Friends

#162

Post by fjsolwmv » Mon, Jun 04, 2018, 4:21 PM UTC

cyberpunk0 wrote: post #150

zaroth wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is like saying that Chrome, Edge or Firefox are “third parties”. Embedding user agent functionality into the OS is not the same as third party access. Talk to me when a device manufacturer is caught exfiltrating this user data off the phone and then aim your pitchforks at them .

Google, Firefox, and Edge are not Facebook so yes they are third party.

They are the second party -- the user.

Facebook never has any interaction with the human user, they only interact with the user agent.

Re: Facebook Gave Device Makers Deep Access to Data on Users and Friends

#163

Post by zaroth » Mon, Jun 04, 2018, 4:25 PM UTC

cryptoz wrote: post #161

zaroth wrote: post #156

This appears to be an API to integrate Facebook chrome and functionality into a mobile OS UI; > “An Apple spokesman said the company relied on private access to Facebook data for features that enabled users to post photos to the social network without opening the Facebook app, among other things. Apple said its phones no longer had such access to Facebook as of last September. ... > Usher Lieberman, a BlackBerry spok…

Your entire post boils down to, "just trust the billionaires!" No, we won't. They are liars and cheaters, the lot of them, and we aren't going to trust them any more. They said in court "we didn't do that" so then you post it here that everything is okay, but I don't trust it. Not one bit. None of us do, or should, trust what those companies say. Mark Zuckerberg is a liar. The whole concept of, "We're doing the right…

I get it that you are channeling Stallman and that you think your device is spying on you. And by all means lets fight that fight and write those stories.

But that’s not the story that the NYT has published here.

I’m incredulous that programmers and hackers would feign surprise that a UI rendering a Facebook feed would necessarily use an API which returned a data structure with... your fucking Facebook feed.

If device manufactures or OS developers (Apple, Microsoft, Samsung, Amazon, Google, etc.) are exfiltrating personal data off of your device — and BTW my Facebook feed would be the least of my concerns in that case — prove it, and the point your pitchforks at them.

Re: Facebook Gave Device Makers Deep Access to Data on Users and Friends

#164

Post by detaro » Mon, Jun 04, 2018, 4:28 PM UTC

zaroth wrote: post #163

cryptoz wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your entire post boils down to, "just trust the billionaires!" No, we won't. They are liars and cheaters, the lot of them, and we aren't going to trust them any more. They said in court "we didn't do that" so then you post it here that everything is okay, but I don't trust it. Not one bit. None of us do, or should, trust what those companies say. Mark Zuckerberg is a liar. The whole concept of, "We're doing the right…

I get it that you are channeling Stallman and that you think your device is spying on you. And by all means lets fight that fight and write those stories. But that’s not the story that the NYT has published here. I’m incredulous that programmers and hackers would feign surprise that a UI rendering a Facebook feed would necessarily use an API which returned a data structure with... your fucking Facebook feed. If devic…

The article cites Facebook as the source for partners having that data on their servers. Is that evidence enough?

Re: Facebook Gave Device Makers Deep Access to Data on Users and Friends

#165

Post by dgzl » Mon, Jun 04, 2018, 4:29 PM UTC

goblin89 wrote: post #128

arthurofbabylon wrote: post #47

Most notable pieces I took from the article: 1) Facebook does not see third parties (such as BlackBerry) as “third parties.” 2) Facebook told Congress that it disabled third party access to user data, but in actuality did not. My own strong interjection: Facebook’s competitive advantage is its disregard for ethics. Somehow, Zuckerberg has been able to convince a lot of smart people to do unethical things and build un…

> Facebook’s competitive advantage is its disregard for ethics. This appears to be a quality that occurs in some business owners. I know more than a single entrepreneur with similar disregard for things like data retention and PII. Their reluctance to address these issues when advised, I assume, would persist until they get burned. Taking a step back, at the root it appears simply that some people are better at focus…

You're describing a huge lack of regard for the victims in this situation, and an exceptional amount of forgiveness for the assailants. Unfortunately, this is the attitude that lets ethical gray-lines exist, and the attitude that should be beaten if you want to avoid stricter regulations.

Re: Facebook Gave Device Makers Deep Access to Data on Users and Friends

#166

Post by cryptoz » Mon, Jun 04, 2018, 4:32 PM UTC

zaroth wrote: post #163

cryptoz wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your entire post boils down to, "just trust the billionaires!" No, we won't. They are liars and cheaters, the lot of them, and we aren't going to trust them any more. They said in court "we didn't do that" so then you post it here that everything is okay, but I don't trust it. Not one bit. None of us do, or should, trust what those companies say. Mark Zuckerberg is a liar. The whole concept of, "We're doing the right…

I get it that you are channeling Stallman and that you think your device is spying on you. And by all means lets fight that fight and write those stories. But that’s not the story that the NYT has published here. I’m incredulous that programmers and hackers would feign surprise that a UI rendering a Facebook feed would necessarily use an API which returned a data structure with... your fucking Facebook feed. If devic…

> you think your device is spying on you

Well, of course it is. Ridiculous to think smartphones aren't spying on their users in this day and age.

> But that’s not the story that the NYT has published here.

Uh, yes it is.

> I’m incredulous that programmers and hackers would feign surprise that a UI rendering a Facebook feed would necessarily use an API which returned a data structure with... your fucking Facebook feed.

I'm incredulous at this sentence. Good lord what anger you have for people just being people. I don't see anyone here "feigning" surprise! I haven't seen that at all about this topic. No need to swear, either. We can talk like reasonable people.

> If device manufactures or OS developers (Apple, Microsoft, Samsung, Amazon, Google, etc.) are exfiltrating personal data off of your device — and BTW my Facebook feed would be the least of my concerns in that case — prove it, and the point your pitchforks at them.

I don't have a pitchfork out and I have absolutely no idea what you're ranting about. This swearing, pitchfork holding comment makes no sense to me. Didn't they take the data anyway? Sounds like you should have your pitchfork out and pointed at Apple, et. al.

This is a privacy concern and that's real. It's not fake, it's real. Nobody is "feigning" concern, this is a real concern, we are not fake people writing fake opinions.

Re: Facebook Gave Device Makers Deep Access to Data on Users and Friends

#167

Post by zaroth » Mon, Jun 04, 2018, 4:35 PM UTC

detaro wrote: post #164

zaroth wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get it that you are channeling Stallman and that you think your device is spying on you. And by all means lets fight that fight and write those stories. But that’s not the story that the NYT has published here. I’m incredulous that programmers and hackers would feign surprise that a UI rendering a Facebook feed would necessarily use an API which returned a data structure with... your fucking Facebook feed. If devic…

The article cites Facebook as the source for partners having that data on their servers. Is that evidence enough?

Which partners? In what form? For what purpose? Are we talking about cache data like Amazon Silk? Encrypted backups?

It doesn’t help the discussion to conflate user agents with third party applications.

But user agents do sometimes push our private data to their own servers — like Chrome’s Omnibar — and if and where that is happening, and how that data is used, absolutely should be disclosed by the device manufacturer.

Re: Facebook Gave Device Makers Deep Access to Data on Users and Friends

#168

Post by kibibu » Mon, Jun 04, 2018, 4:35 PM UTC

Vinnl wrote: post #67

tmalsburg2 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish I could agree with you're more nuanced viewpoint, but seeing a whole industry making insane amounts of money based on abusive and deceptive business models suggests that there truely is a broader issue. Whether the underlying attitude is best describe by "move fast, break things" is debatable but we can't easily dismiss the idea.

I think the point is that that quip usually refers to technical breakage, i.e. "it's better to ship more often and potentially break something that you then fix equally quickly, than spending thrice as much time analysing the problem to ensure there's no breakage in the first place". In other words, an entirely different meaning that what the grandparent meant when they said it was a great phrase for it.

The point is that, while it applies to technical issues, it equally applies to ethical ones.

- "Should we share this data?"

- "I don't know, we'll figure that out in version 2"

Re: Facebook Gave Device Makers Deep Access to Data on Users and Friends

#169

Post by detaro » Mon, Jun 04, 2018, 4:42 PM UTC

zaroth wrote: post #167

detaro wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article cites Facebook as the source for partners having that data on their servers. Is that evidence enough?

Which partners? In what form? For what purpose? Are we talking about cache data like Amazon Silk? Encrypted backups? It doesn’t help the discussion to conflate user agents with third party applications. But user agents do sometimes push our private data to their own servers — like Chrome’s Omnibar — and if and where that is happening, and how that data is used, absolutely should be disclosed by the device manufacture…

If the bit about "on their servers" didn't refer to device partners I would have expected Facebooks response[1] to the article to call that out as misleading, but it didn't. I hope too we'll see details somewhere to get a better judgement of how bad/not bad it is.

[1] https://newsroom.fb.com/news/2018/06/why-we-disagree-with-th...

Re: Facebook Gave Device Makers Deep Access to Data on Users and Friends

#170

Post by zaroth » Mon, Jun 04, 2018, 4:50 PM UTC

cryptoz wrote: post #166

zaroth wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get it that you are channeling Stallman and that you think your device is spying on you. And by all means lets fight that fight and write those stories. But that’s not the story that the NYT has published here. I’m incredulous that programmers and hackers would feign surprise that a UI rendering a Facebook feed would necessarily use an API which returned a data structure with... your fucking Facebook feed. If devic…

> you think your device is spying on you Well, of course it is. Ridiculous to think smartphones aren't spying on their users in this day and age. > But that’s not the story that the NYT has published here. Uh, yes it is. > I’m incredulous that programmers and hackers would feign surprise that a UI rendering a Facebook feed would necessarily use an API which returned a data structure with... your fucking Facebook feed…

The ad hominem doesn’t help your argument.

Look at how the NYT portrays the Blackberry Hub view as having access to the FB data required to render your feed, in order to render your FB feed... and equating it to a third party app having the same level of access.

For starters, a user agent requires that you enter your FB username and password in order to function.

If they rendered a Facebook feed through a browser the exact same data would have passed over the network, and the device would have had the same level of access to that data.

It is sloppy reporting and a disservice to the non-technical community to equate an embedded user agent with a third party app.

You seem to think the NYT wrote an article discussing the finer details of whether we can trust our personal devices to keep all the private data that flows through them. What I read seemed more like a sloppy hit-job on Facebook because it’s a popular punching bag of late.