Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Telegram App Says Apple Is Blocking Updates Over Dispute with Russia

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

161–170 of 254 posts

Re: Telegram App Says Apple Is Blocking Updates Over Dispute with Russia

#161

Post by codedokode »

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #62
shkkmo wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is certainly evidence that Russia has a problem with Telegram. There is also evidence that Russia is trying to get Telegram removed from the app store. What we don't have any evidence for is that these are in any way related to Telegram's inability to get updates approved by Apple. This is speculation based on the above claims which do have evidence.

Fair enough - this is essentially my own question above - what pressure can be applied by Russia to Apple to prevent App Store UK getting updates? If you have a legal dispute in country A does the prevent all counties getting updates?

Apple might have no system to stop updates in one specific country.

Re: Telegram App Says Apple Is Blocking Updates Over Dispute with Russia

#162

Post by jackson1way »

veidr wrote: post #110

This is a fundamental problem with the single DRM-enforced app store model that Apple innovated, and which has been widely copied and lauded. Once you implement that, you have to toady up to whatever governments exist, including oppressive/murderous regimes, to be in their markets. If your ecosystem is just console video games, say, it's not that big of a deal; you have to either censor some games or don't enter cert…

> mass murder of gay people (Russia)

any source on that? I have never heard about any murdering of gay people in russia.

Clearly, Russia is rather hostile to gay people. But "mass murder" requires a proper source. Or you you are walking on the Iraq Weapons of Mass Destruction path.

Re: Telegram App Says Apple Is Blocking Updates Over Dispute with Russia

#163

Post by codedokode »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #6

This is presently an accusation by Telegram, nothing more. Sample of reasons why Apple may be doing whatever they are doing: 1) Telegram is prevalently used by Syrian fighters [1]. (Why they chose Telegram over Signal beats me.) As the Syrian conflict winds down, these fighters are returning home. That creates a security imperative for many governments, including in the EU. 2) Telegram recently ran an ICO that, at th…

> Telegram is prevalently used by Syrian fighters

So Apple is afraid that they will start killing people in Europe using newer Telegram versions?

Russian propaganda says similar things, that Telegram is used by terrorists and drug dealers and that is why government needs to be able to read your messages.

> Telegram recently ran an ICO that, at the very least, probably runs afoul of American securities law.

Telegram is a British company.

Re: Telegram App Says Apple Is Blocking Updates Over Dispute with Russia

#164

Post by veidr »

codedokode wrote: post #155

Please note that Telegram is not a Russian company; it is registered in Great Britain. Russian government doesn't have any jurisdiction over it. Also, russian users are less than 10% of Telegram userbase. So now Apple is putting sanctions upon a British company just because Russia says so. This sets a dangerous precedent. What will we see tomorrow? China, Thailand, Iran and North Korea kicking apps they don't like ou…

Apple already does ban apps on political grounds, even pretty innocuous just-the-facts type apps:

https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/538kan/apple-just...

And yes, I think you are likely right: we will see apps banned at the behest of the Chinese government, given the size of their market. (North Korea, perhaps not.)

Apple painted themselves into this corner when they decided to become the gatekeeper of what iPhone users are allowed to install.

Re: Telegram App Says Apple Is Blocking Updates Over Dispute with Russia

#165

Post by gesman »

jenga22 wrote: post #123

Apple has now entered dangerous territory. Over the last month they seem to have banned apps because some government out there didn't like that app. To make matters worse, those very same governments weren't happy with the app being removed from their regional app store but they demanded it removed from all app stores. The VPN issue was a wake up call for a lot of developers. These apps were on the app store for year…

>> Worse, VCs are now getting nervous in investing in startups where the app is the fundamental foundation of the business.

Betting on startup whose business solely depends on a mercy of someone else's platform is a bad idea to begin with.

Re: Telegram App Says Apple Is Blocking Updates Over Dispute with Russia

#166

Post by codedokode »

kbenson wrote: post #33
jonknee wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Installing apps outside an app store also introduces other risks, it's not exactly one better than the other. Personally I'd love to sideload apps, but seeing how big of a mess that was on desktops leads me to believe most users are better served by a gatekeeper.

> most users are better served by a gatekeeper. I think the point is that Android's marketplace functions as a gate keeper. Apple's marketplace functions as a prison warden . The difference is whether you on the inside are allowed to make exceptions for who can come through, or even pass through yourself. If you have no control, what you've been told is a protective wall is actually restraining wall. That said, as to…

While Android allows to install apps from anywhere, it doesn't allow them to have the same privileges that Google's apps have and doesn't allow them to manage iptables for example.

Re: Telegram App Says Apple Is Blocking Updates Over Dispute with Russia

#168

Post by codedokode »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #99
danShumway wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Others have already said this, but you can always add a gatekeeper on top of an open system. IMHO what closed systems like Apple propose is a false dichotomy. There's no reason why Apple couldn't allow sideloading apps and aggressively curate it's own store. The average user will use Apple certified apps and the power users who need more will sideload uncertified apps. If gatekeepers are as genuinely beneficial to en…

Put a phone permitting side loading in front of my mom or half my friends and they’ll find a way to get a virus within a month. Broadly speaking, freedom a consumer doesn’t understand isn’t freedom to them. Apple’s products are reliable in part due to their tight control over the ecosystem.

You can add a scary warning which could be enough for many users. And charge additional fee for fixing system broken because of this.

Re: Telegram App Says Apple Is Blocking Updates Over Dispute with Russia

#169

Post by nicky0 »

mirimir wrote: post #103
eganist wrote: post #23

I'd given this challenge some thought in the recent past, specifically the challenge that the big app store owners are each generally susceptible to coercion by large nation-state actors in spite of being multinationally distributed. There was a project I was involved in rather heavily (cyph // resulted in a pair of neat conference talks) where we'd accounted for the risks of apps being banned by making the entire ap…

If users could install Telegram from third-party sources, without rooting their phones, this issue wouldn't be so serious. Or if users could install from trusted friends, even. That is, if iOS apps could be shared. There's a similar issue for Android apps. But it's my understanding that it's easier, and doesn't require rooting. But of course, this would break Apple's "we are the only app source, because you can only…

If Telegram released the source code, people could compile and install it on their own iOS devices.

Re: Telegram App Says Apple Is Blocking Updates Over Dispute with Russia

#170

Post by codedokode »

danShumway wrote: post #135
cookiecaper wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like most security features that can be trivially disabled, if it's simple to turn it off, bad actors will just say "OK, first click 'Turn this off', just click 'Yes' on all the mumbo-jumbo that comes up, and then you can use our software that will give you [free money/a better love life/etc]". Many people who would've gotten far enough to install the app in the first place will be able to follow the prompts to disab…

But again, if moderated app stores are good enough for the average user, why are they going through Amazon's tutorial to begin with? Why isn't Amazon on the official channel? It feels circular to me: "Most users are better served by a gatekeeper" -> "Because if users had a choice to go outside the system they would" -> "Therefore the gatekeeper must be mandatory" -> "Because most users are better served by a gatekeep…

Being able to install apps without Apple's permission also means being able to sell apps without paying 30% to Apple.
Post reply on HN