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Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI project

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Re: Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI project

#161

Post by astrodust »

walshemj wrote: post #153
astrodust wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's an extraordinarily fine line between agricultural fertilizers and industrial explosives.

I was thinking more along the lines of chemical weapons.

Same thing. Chlorine gas is commonly used in many industrial processes, but it's also a highly toxic chemical that has been used (and banned!) in warfare.

The biggest problem is so-called "dual use" chemicals and compounds where there are legitimate military and non-military uses.

You can build extremely dangerous explosives from chemicals found on the shelf at a drug store, but that doesn't mean that company is in the business of selling explosives.

Re: Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI project

#162

Post by pandaman »

sametmax wrote: post #155
pandaman wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is nothing extraordinary or even unusual in this. It's basic tribalism: my tribe is made from virtuous people who are also smart and beautiful, the enemy tribe, on the other hand, consists of deformed degenerates with the room temperature IQ.

No you see you imply that I've given a value to the people here. Which is not at all what I said. I exactly said I can't understand the line of thinking that leads to the decision. That's pretty much all.

Did not you imply that smart people cannot possibly be in the other tribe so there has to be some reason why your tribe members are not quitting the enemy tribe cause?

Re: Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI project

#163

Post by sametmax »

refurb wrote: post #158
sametmax wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, let's say suddenly you learn a community of elite thinkers eat babies and think it's good way to control population. You'd be baffled, wouldn't you ? It's not a matter of morality, of good or bad, or right or wrong. I understand the difference exists. It just feels so alien to me I can't get to form the mental model that helps me understand what thinking lead to this behavior. Also, read the other comments, we…

you learn a community of elite thinkers eat babies Maybe I'm not reading this correctly, but you're saying that if anyone holds an opinion different than yours your reaction is the same as if they thought "eating babies" was OK? Things aren't that black and white. People can hold opinions different than your and you can withhold judgement.

They just have a different opinion on eating babies. People can hold opinions different than your and you can withhold judgement.

See again, you add morality in the equation, talking about black and white. But morality is arbitrary. You can draw the line anywhere, one inch to left or the right, and so on, indefinitely.

So that's not what I said.

What I said was "I can't understand".

Not "it should not be" or "it's impossible" or "they are bad people".

Apparently, you have difficulty to understand that somebody can't understand.

Re: Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI project

#164

Post by jeffreyrogers »

whb07 wrote: post #58
jeffreyrogers wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you partly, and I think often people who are critical of all military actions are not considering the importance of a strong military in deterring large scale conflict. But I think it's also true that carrying out military operations (even precise ones) in unstable parts of the world helps violent extremists gain support among the broader population and does nothing to help alleviate the instability that…

I agree with you as well. I truly believe that the military is for the "defense" of the U.S. Sometimes though a good defense can be a good offense. But by and large I think the 17 years spent in the middle east has been wasteful and largely unproductive. Having said that, there is a number of girls for example who are able to study past elementary school who would have never had the chance to. So maybe not all is was…

I'm not sure why you're being downvoted. I think what you're saying is pretty reasonable, and I definitely agree about some of the benefits of drones. I'm not sure how effective killing terrorists actually is given that our ostensible ally in the region, Saudi Arabia, appears to tacitly support a lot of the Islamic fundamentalism that gives rise to these extremists. I think a big issue that no one knows how to address is how to combat a religious ideology that does not admit the possibility of making any compromises.

Re: Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI project

#165

Post by sametmax »

pandaman wrote: post #162
sametmax wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No you see you imply that I've given a value to the people here. Which is not at all what I said. I exactly said I can't understand the line of thinking that leads to the decision. That's pretty much all.

Did not you imply that smart people cannot possibly be in the other tribe so there has to be some reason why your tribe members are not quitting the enemy tribe cause?

I never used anything close to "cannot possibly". I said I could not understand. I used the words "why" and "I wonder". It's very clear. It's not ambiguous. But you seem very attached to your tribe theory, so you want my past comment to fit your present view.

And it's a very conflicting view of the word too. Do you see us as enemies as well ?

In which case, you win this argument. I don't want my tribe to fight yours.

Re: Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI project

#166

Post by dorgo »

p1esk wrote: post #103
cmrdporcupine wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Arguably the majority supports the ideological foundations, aims, and methods of the institutions you are speaking of. In particular the military and intelligence institutions. If they didn't, they would have been removed by vote or force some time ago. Frankly the broad majority of people in the US benefit materially in some way from their existence in ways that they might not even be fully aware of. I am not arguin…

Interesting. I have absolutely zero ethical concerns with Google building a drone which can more accurately target someone. I'm also perfectly fine with US government using those drones to kill bad guys. Now if they use it to kill good guys, then it's a problem that needs to be solved.

Is Snowden a good guy?

My government did enough stupid things for me to not want them to have sophisticated military toys.

Re: Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI project

#167

Post by pandaman »

sametmax wrote: post #165
pandaman wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did not you imply that smart people cannot possibly be in the other tribe so there has to be some reason why your tribe members are not quitting the enemy tribe cause?

I never used anything close to "cannot possibly". I said I could not understand. I used the words "why" and "I wonder". It's very clear. It's not ambiguous. But you seem very attached to your tribe theory, so you want my past comment to fit your present view. And it's a very conflicting view of the word too. Do you see us as enemies as well ? In which case, you win this argument. I don't want my tribe to fight yours.

Sorry, then, if you didn't want to say that then I don't understand why you posted your message at all. It then literally amounts to "I cannot understand other people motivation" and all the references to intellect and understanding consequences and shiny toys are irrelevant.

As for myself being tribal - it's very hard to observe tribalism in oneself so, while I am not seeing it, I can very well be.

Re: Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI project

#169

Post by p1esk »

dorgo wrote: post #166
p1esk wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. I have absolutely zero ethical concerns with Google building a drone which can more accurately target someone. I'm also perfectly fine with US government using those drones to kill bad guys. Now if they use it to kill good guys, then it's a problem that needs to be solved.

Is Snowden a good guy? My government did enough stupid things for me to not want them to have sophisticated military toys.

Is Snowden a good guy?

Debatable, but regardless - do you think the reason US government have not killed Snowden is the lack of "sophisticated military toys"?

Also, my government did enough stupid things (like killing innocent people in war zones by mistake) for me to want them to have more intelligent weapons.

Re: Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI project

#170

Post by p1esk »

sametmax wrote: post #115
p1esk wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. I have absolutely zero ethical concerns with Google building a drone which can more accurately target someone. I'm also perfectly fine with US government using those drones to kill bad guys. Now if they use it to kill good guys, then it's a problem that needs to be solved.

Yeah but your good guys and their good guys will not be the same for ever.

If that ever happens, I will protest them killing good guys, rather than protest them having advanced weapons.
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