Facebook now denying access unless EU users opt-in to tracking • Hacker News Board

Re: Facebook now denying access unless EU users opt-in to tracking

#161

Post by frockington » Wed, May 09, 2018, 5:12 PM UTC

KozmoNau7 wrote: post #124

ClassAndBurn wrote: post #42

GDPR doesn't cover enough of the population using Facebook to warrant such a change to their business model where you can use the service without them using your data. They believe they are entrenched enough to just require this (and likely are for many EU residents).

As far as I know, the GDPR stipulates that you cannot deny people access to you service if they do not opt-in to tracking, unless the service you provide is very specifically a tracking service. Tracking is not the primary service Facebook provides to their users, so the GDPR will not allow them to bar access for users who do not opt-in to being tracked.

And how would Europe make an American company offer services to Europeans? Is there a legal pathway to do this or would their court summons be used to level out chairs in FB HQ?

Re: Facebook now denying access unless EU users opt-in to tracking

#162

Post by KozmoNau7 » Wed, May 09, 2018, 5:13 PM UTC

zerostar07 wrote: post #35

I doubt they released this without consulting the relevant data agencies in the EU. And TBH there is nothing shocking here, just a confirmation of what everybody knows is already happening. I 'm also in the EU and this makes perfect sense to me: if you can't accept seeing some ads then you can't use the free service. I highly doubt people are willing to pay $5 cash / quarter to use it, but i would like to see FB givi…

According to GDPR, you cannot make access to your service require opt-in to tracking, unless your service very specifically cannot work in any way without tracking. And no, your business model not working because you cannot track users anymore is not the same as your service not working. Find a better business model.

Facebook would still work just fine without the tracking, as proven by the fact that you can switch off targeted ads and everything still works fine.

Re: Facebook now denying access unless EU users opt-in to tracking

#163

Post by Faaak » Wed, May 09, 2018, 5:13 PM UTC

brightball wrote: post #151

So basically Facebook is saying that if we can’t make money from you, you can’t have an account.

What's wrong with that ? I mean, FB is a free service.

(I don't have a FB account)

Re: Facebook now denying access unless EU users opt-in to tracking

#164

Post by vidarh » Wed, May 09, 2018, 5:13 PM UTC

TheCapn wrote: post #57

ben509 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It may be that FB's lawyers come at it with a more American view whereby it's legal if it complies with the letter of the law. I suspect the Euro legal system tends to build a fence around the Torah, so to speak.

I would be absolutely shocked if Facebook didn't have european legal professionals hired to deal with this instead of having their American lawyers try to interpret foreign law.

Maybe, but my experience with US companies is that surprisingly large companies sometimes think they'll get away with just doing stuff that's legal under US law and pretend the EU is just another US state.

E.g. I spent 3 years at Yahoo (more than a decade ago now) wrangling with US product managers that found it incredibly hard to accept that the "workarounds" they kept proposing for EU requirements for payments systems were highly illegal in the European countries we operated in, as a means to cut effort. My team existed pretty much only to form a protective layer between the US payments team and the European business because the European business didn't trust them to not pull a fast one to save time, because they didn't understand the seriousness of the requirements.

But in many European countries, the courts takes a very dim view on that kind of attitude.

Re: Facebook now denying access unless EU users opt-in to tracking

#165

Post by cabaalis » Wed, May 09, 2018, 5:14 PM UTC

KozmoNau7 wrote: post #132

vidarh wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They can choose to not provide service to EU citizens. If they provide service to EU citizens, then with that comes limitations on what rights the have under EU law to pick and choose which EU citizens they want to provide service to. Nobody is forcing them to serve the EU market.

Their choices are to either be GDPR-complient, or to completely bar all EU users from accessing Facebook. They cannot use tracking opt-in as a requirement for access.

American here; I just don't quite understand the premise. "Here is what you are giving us, and here is what you're getting in return" seems perfectly legit to me. If this interpretation of the law is correct, then the government is essentially saying the "in return" portion has to be eliminated. Which seems to be against the idea of trade.

Re: Facebook now denying access unless EU users opt-in to tracking

#166

Post by nottorp » Wed, May 09, 2018, 5:14 PM UTC

briandear wrote: post #123

star-castle wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's basically how it works in the US, yes.

Ever flown from Istanbul? I was searched three separate time, including just to enter the airport. Implying that this is a US thing is not accurate.

Istanbul is not exactly Europe, and from what I hear from US friends they get special treatment there. Someone (from the US) I know swapped planes in Istanbul and said never again.

Re: Facebook now denying access unless EU users opt-in to tracking

#167

Post by frockington » Wed, May 09, 2018, 5:14 PM UTC

barrkel wrote: post #94

purple-again wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm really curious to find out if the GDPR privacy stance (I'm American, not well traveled, and with no non american social circle) is like the 'no JavaScript' community. Vastly over represented in the tech community and not really representative of the population as a whole. In other words, are 99% of European citizens going to just click through what ever annoying prompts they have to in order to get to their faceb…

The click-through is itself likely violating the regulation. All it takes is for someone to complain; it's not enough for 99% of people to click through.

How long would it take a EU court to notice, plan, and take action ? VW was blatantly lying about emissions for years and nobody seemed to care

Re: Facebook now denying access unless EU users opt-in to tracking

#168

Post by BlackDeath3 » Wed, May 09, 2018, 5:16 PM UTC

halfdan wrote: post #56

gonmf wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no legal right to Facebook, but if Facebook wants to do business here, it has to abide by our rules. And our rules are very simple, you cannot deny service because the user doesn't allow tracking if tracking is not necessary for your service to work. And it isn't in this case, it's only necessary to deliver higher paying ads. Since they are being selective on the users they accept based on being tracked, the…

Given their de facto monopoly I'm not sure "There is no legal right to Facebook" is correct anymore. It's sort of like the internet where if you were denied access you'd have a significant disadvantage in society - it could easily be argued that denying access to Facebook gives you a similar disadvantage. At the end of the day this will need to be decided in courts.

Personally, I'd really not like to see a precedent set for a company entering a market, doing very well, and then being legally compelled to provide their product as some sort of legal right to an entire population. It might be a different story if said company is employing anti-competitive practices, but telling somebody that they're now legally obligated to serve a community because they're just too good at what they do, or so popular that nobody else can best them, seems a little too authoritarian for my taste.

Re: Facebook now denying access unless EU users opt-in to tracking

#169

Post by dan1234 » Wed, May 09, 2018, 5:18 PM UTC

juxncxrlos wrote: post #122

carrja99 wrote: post #115

Believe me folks, just delete facebook. I've been so much happier since I did.

What about memes pages? that's the only reason I keep my account. Also, I don't even see adds with and Ad-blocker. What are they going to try to sell me, a meme page subscription?

Most of the memes will have been copied from Reddit anyway.

Re: Facebook now denying access unless EU users opt-in to tracking

#170

Post by ihumanable » Wed, May 09, 2018, 5:18 PM UTC

Lionsion wrote: post #139

ClassAndBurn wrote: post #42

GDPR doesn't cover enough of the population using Facebook to warrant such a change to their business model where you can use the service without them using your data. They believe they are entrenched enough to just require this (and likely are for many EU residents).

> GDPR doesn't cover enough of the population using Facebook to warrant such a change to their business model where you can use the service without them using your data. The real question isn't population, it's revenue per user. An typical American or a European will draw a lot more revenue to Facebook than a typical person from a 3rd world country accessing Facebook through "Free Basics." My educated guess is that E…

No need to guess, they are a public company and just released their 2018 Q1 Quarterly Earnings Report

https://s21.q4cdn.com/399680738/files/doc_financials/2018/Q1...

From Slide 5:

Q12018: Europe was #2 with $3.036B in revenue

Q42017: Europe was #2 with $3.250B in revenue

And so on, it looks like every quarter on this slide has Europe in spot #2 behind US & Canada.