First Lightning mainnet release • Hacker News Board

Re: First Lightning mainnet release

#161

Post by nosuchthing » Thu, Mar 15, 2018, 10:26 PM UTC

tobik999 wrote: post #154

nosuchthing wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nano / Raiblocks is a scam in the sense it is created for free, and old users need new users to dump their nano at a profit to new bag holders. The initial distribution of XRB was performed through "manual mining" limited via a captcha. The distribution rate was 17 XRB (Raiblocks) per hour per ip4. This method was easy to automate, and easy to bypass with the plethora of VPNs and users who own hundreds of IP4/IP6 add…

You are describing the problem of all currencies, ie also dollar. If no one accepts your dollar you are screwed.

Riiight... well everyone accepts the USD.

Not even the darknet vendors accept Nano / Raiblocks.

Do you know any places where Nano XRP Raiblocks are being accepted?

You might want to read these:

http://steamcommunity.com/games/593110/announcements/detail/...

https://stripe.com/blog/ending-bitcoin-support

tl;dr cryptocurrencies don't really work for the real world.

Re: First Lightning mainnet release

#162

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Mar 15, 2018, 10:32 PM UTC

tobik999 wrote: post #154

nosuchthing wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nano / Raiblocks is a scam in the sense it is created for free, and old users need new users to dump their nano at a profit to new bag holders. The initial distribution of XRB was performed through "manual mining" limited via a captcha. The distribution rate was 17 XRB (Raiblocks) per hour per ip4. This method was easy to automate, and easy to bypass with the plethora of VPNs and users who own hundreds of IP4/IP6 add…

You are describing the problem of all currencies, ie also dollar. If no one accepts your dollar you are screwed.

[deleted]

Re: First Lightning mainnet release

#163

Post by AndrewSChapman » Thu, Mar 15, 2018, 10:33 PM UTC

sireat wrote: post #55

brendanw wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It exists. It is called nano: no fees and instant transactions through the block lattice. https://nano.org/en/whitepaper I am surprised more folks on HN are not familiar with nano considering it is one of the few teams in crypto with endorsements from familiar faces: Zack Shapiro on the core team (ex-Product Hunt), Garry Tan (YC, angel investor in Coinbase), and Charlie Lee (former director of engineering @ Coinbase)…

Endorsements and nifty tech are nothing without actual use. Nano suffers from the same problem that 99.9% of cryptocurrencies suffer from: no useful information on how an average person might actually USE it. Google brings various ways you can BUY Nano in order to speculate. I want to see real world usage, I want to buy VPN/Hosting/Alpaca Socks using Nano. PS Nano is also 100% pre-mined which means one would have to…

You can infact buy hosting and sockets with Nano :-) See Kaizen Sports and Lacicloud here: https://hellonano.net:8081/

Also checkout BrainBlocks (developed by one of the Paypal devs I believe) - they are making integration into ecommerce stores quite easy.

Re: First Lightning mainnet release

#164

Post by brendanw » Thu, Mar 15, 2018, 10:34 PM UTC

nosuchthing wrote: post #161

tobik999 wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are describing the problem of all currencies, ie also dollar. If no one accepts your dollar you are screwed.

Riiight... well everyone accepts the USD. Not even the darknet vendors accept Nano / Raiblocks. Do you know any places where Nano XRP Raiblocks are being accepted? You might want to read these: http://steamcommunity.com/games/593110/announcements/detail/... https://stripe.com/blog/ending-bitcoin-support tl;dr cryptocurrencies don't really work for the real world.

Why do you have such a strong emotionally negative response to cryptocurrencies? It is pretty clear you are communicating disingenuously. The reasons for ending BTC support for many merchants and platforms were high fees and long tx confirmation times, which is what many altcoins have focused on addressing (eg Ether, Stellar, Litecoin, Nano)

Re: First Lightning mainnet release

#165

Post by jflejmer » Thu, Mar 15, 2018, 10:40 PM UTC

sireat wrote: post #55

brendanw wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It exists. It is called nano: no fees and instant transactions through the block lattice. https://nano.org/en/whitepaper I am surprised more folks on HN are not familiar with nano considering it is one of the few teams in crypto with endorsements from familiar faces: Zack Shapiro on the core team (ex-Product Hunt), Garry Tan (YC, angel investor in Coinbase), and Charlie Lee (former director of engineering @ Coinbase)…

Endorsements and nifty tech are nothing without actual use. Nano suffers from the same problem that 99.9% of cryptocurrencies suffer from: no useful information on how an average person might actually USE it. Google brings various ways you can BUY Nano in order to speculate. I want to see real world usage, I want to buy VPN/Hosting/Alpaca Socks using Nano. PS Nano is also 100% pre-mined which means one would have to…

There are a lot of merchants that accept Nano and this number is rising very fast. Check this link: https://www.reddit.com/r/nanocurrency/comments/83w51x/25_mon...

Re: First Lightning mainnet release

#166

Post by AndrewSChapman » Thu, Mar 15, 2018, 10:42 PM UTC

CyberDildonics wrote: post #32

cmer wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It quickly gets very expensive to do so.

How? If the proof of work only takes a few seconds, what prevents someone from spamming a new transaction every few seconds?

The Raiblocks / Nano white paper says:

B. Transaction Flooding A malicious entity could send many unnecessary but valid transactions between accounts under its control in an attempt to saturate the network. With no transaction fees they are able to continue this attack indefinitely. However, the PoW required for each transaction limits the transaction rate the malicious entity could generate without significantly investing in computational resources. Even under such an attack in an attempt to inflate the ledger, nodes that are not full historical nodes are able to prune old transactions from their chain; this clamps the storage usage from this type of attack for almost all users.

and

"D. Penny-Spend Attack A penny-spend attack is where an attacker spends infinites- imal quantities to a large number of accounts in order to waste the storage resources of nodes. Block publishing is rate-limited by the PoW, so this limits the creation of accounts and transactions to a certain extent. Nodes that are not full historical nodes can prune accounts below a statistical metric where the account is most likely not a valid account. Finally, RaiBlocks is tuned to use minimal permanent storage space, so space required to store one additional account is proportional to the size of an open block + indexing = 96B +32B = 128B. This equates to 1GB being able to store 8 million penny-spend account. If nodes wanted to prune more aggressively, they can calculate a distribution based on access frequency and delegate infrequently used accounts to slower storage."

Re: First Lightning mainnet release

#167

Post by AndrewSChapman » Thu, Mar 15, 2018, 10:46 PM UTC

Erlangolem wrote: post #46

foepys wrote: post #10

Did the Lightning Network solve the routing problem now or are they still emulating banks by requiring permanent online super nodes?

or are they still emulating banks by requiring permanent online super nodes? This. The result seems likely to be massive centralized entrenchmemt, unless you believe that most people are going to trust their money to their own dedicated systems. Centralized bitcoin kills its “cyberpunk” dream, and lower tx fees don’t matter to the majority using this as a speculative asset. As a solution to replace money the question…

I don't think this is true of many people in the Nano community. Rightly or delusionally, they want to earn it, spread it and spend it.

Re: First Lightning mainnet release

#168

Post by tobik999 » Thu, Mar 15, 2018, 10:47 PM UTC

xur17 wrote: post #155

tobik999 wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your calculation is wrong. One 1070 is able to produce about 1.6 txs, so 100 x 1070 are able to produce 160 txs. For a full transaction you need to do two time POW (send and receive), so if you use the same cards to receive the tx also you are only able to produce 80 txs. Right now I do not think you would harm the network up to about 10k - 50k txs (a simple laptop is able to monitor about 1k txs). So you may want to…

My calculations are based on the numbers from the article I linked to. I'm guessing they might have changed the difficulty since that blog post was written? Regardless though, I can precompute the PoW for each transaction, so I could preprocess for a month to get a higher tps.

It was not changed yet, 30,000tx/18,000seconds=1.6txs

Re: First Lightning mainnet release

#169

Post by dlubarov » Thu, Mar 15, 2018, 10:49 PM UTC

darawk wrote: post #133

dlubarov wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's okay if users could settle reasonably often, but unless the main chain's capacity is greatly increased, that won't be the case. If 7 billion people used Bitcoin today, the current ~4 TPS capacity would only be enough for each person to perform one transaction every 55 years. If we adopted a 100mb block size, which is probably pushing the limit of what a normal server machine can handle, that would be jus…

I think the idea is that due to the existence of LN, you would almost never need to settle on-chain. But because you theoretically could, you maintain all the benefits of genuine financial sovereignty without ever having to actually exercise it.

I haven't read most of the paper (59 pages!) so I might be missing something, but let's say I'm receiving Lightning payments from my employer and sending Lightning payments to my landlord. When my channel to my landlord runs out of funds, won't I need a couple on-chain transactions to withdraw funds from my employer channel and add them to my landlord channel?

If I could somehow transfer my employer's IOUs to my landlord off-chain, I figure that break the security model because my landlord wouldn't know if I had double spent the IOUs. Let me know if I'm missing something though.

Re: First Lightning mainnet release

#170

Post by xur17 » Thu, Mar 15, 2018, 10:56 PM UTC

tobik999 wrote: post #168

xur17 wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My calculations are based on the numbers from the article I linked to. I'm guessing they might have changed the difficulty since that blog post was written? Regardless though, I can precompute the PoW for each transaction, so I could preprocess for a month to get a higher tps.

It was not changed yet, 30,000tx/18,000seconds=1.6txs

You're right. I did my math wrong.