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GDPR – A Practical Guide for Developers (2017)

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Re: GDPR – A Practical Guide for Developers (2017)

#161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't have to delete these logs when someone emails you if they're still useful for those purposes. You do need to delete those logs eventually though, and you need to disclose how often that is. It can be ten years if you want. That sort of argument has worked pretty well for Disney and friends when it comes to extending copyright indefinitely and yet not technically violating the US constitution's "temporary" w…

I'm still grasping GDPR myself, but in terms of deleting users from backups might be solved via uids. Each user should also have a uid that isn't PII by itself. Upon getting a eraser request you remove everything and preserve the uid and flag it. Then, when restoring from backup you can easily see which users need to be erased, and you've not stored PII for any amount of time. As an aside, you also have to understand…

It's even easier than that: Just keep the requests for deletion in a separate database, like hardcopy in a filing cabinet. Then train your staff to check the filing cabinet whenever they restore from backups.

Re: GDPR – A Practical Guide for Developers (2017)

#162
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would. I'm doing some GDPR consulting at the moment and most of my conversations are "I don't think it's as complicated as you do". Americans tend to read law very pathologically unless they are familiar with how European legislation works, and every programmer out there thinks they are an armchair lawyer since there are "obvious" skillset similarities between decoding software and decoding law. "Forget me" is very…

Interesting. Do you have a link to your consulting company? Do you have a blog on GDPR related topics?

I don't operate a blog, and my primary function at my company is as an SME, so I mostly consult to our customer's in-house legal. That said, my contact details aren't difficult to discover, so by all means reach out if there's something specific you want to talk about that you don't want to share publicly.

Re: GDPR – A Practical Guide for Developers (2017)

#163
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes you say that there's no agreement as to what it means? It feels like I see this sort of view expressed quite frequently. My guess is that it's primarily because people want a reason not to look to comply in lots of cases, or to dismiss GDPR. "How can we comply if no one knows what it really means to comply". In many cases, the GDPR simply reiterates/builds upon existing data protection law which has a weal…

What makes you say that there's no agreement as to what it means? It feels like I see this sort of view expressed quite frequently. One fundamental problem is that the GDPR, if interpreted literally and fully enforced to the letter, is absurdly onerous for any small organisation and allows for fines that pose an existential threat without any requirement for proportionality. Defenders of the GDPR, including some of t…

Sure, I see where you're coming from. I guess we'll just have to wait and see whether data protection authorities start dropping 20 million Euro fines on people from day 1 for breaches of the law. My view and instinct is that this won't happen. Even with the relatively low level of fines at present, in the UK for example the Information Commissioner's Office has rarely reached the limit.

However, can you give me specific examples of where it would be 'absurdly onerous' to comply? I assume you're talking about restriction of processing, data portability, rights of erasure in the main? Yes, this creates costs, but overall these are minor matters compared to what the regulators will actually focus on which is blatant misuse of consumer data and failure to implement appropriate security measures.

Also, can you give me examples of heavy-handedness by regulators and courts in relation to EU rules? The main example that could potentially fall within this bracket relates to anti-competitive behaviour. In relation to privacy-related matters, the revised E-Privacy Directive in relation to cookie consent was widely ignored without any real ramifications that I'm aware of. On existing data protection law generally, data protection authorities have been relatively restrained in my experience, with the larger fines coming from blatant misuse of personal data or data breaches where even basic security protections were not in place.

What detrimental effects do you think will follow from complying with GDPR compared to those who do not? I'm not saying there won't be any but would be good to understand if you have any specific examples. Do you imagine that whilst some organisations strain to comply with GDPR, others will be forging ahead with new features and capturing market share?

Another point on competition is that on one view, because GDPR is expanding the territorial scope this levels the playing field to an extent. Increased fines also create a disincentive to engage in behaviour harmful to users' privacy. I appreciate that enforcement will likely remain an issue for those outside the EEA depending on the nature of the entity. I cannot imagine that Google would simply avoid paying the previously levied fines, depending on how the appeals go.

My experience is that many businesses are not falling over backwards to comply GDPR. I certainly haven't seen businesses going 'too far' in looking to comply. Businesses that have taken sound advice have adopted a risk-based approach to GDPR compliance, assessing where the greatest risks are and acting accordingly. The regulatory focus will not be on small businesses, but instead on players like Google, Facebook and those losing vast quantities of user data.

Re: GDPR – A Practical Guide for Developers (2017)

#164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Usernames are not necessarilly personally identifying, and are freely given by the user to be publicly displayed on a forum. Passwords are not personnally indentifying, and you shouldn't be storing them anyway!

> Usernames are not necessarily personally identifying Literally the only purpose of usernames is identifying people. I don't know the actual text of the GDPR, so I don't know the definition of "personally identifying", but I find it very strange that people seem to restrict the definition of "personally identifying" to "connects directly to your IRL identity".

The distinction stems partly from the US-EU divide. US use the term personally identifiable information (PII). This has a narrow definition and relates to that which connects your real identify. However, 'PII' is not a concept under EU data protection law which instead uses the far broader term of personal data.

Personal data is both PII and any information which could be used to identify someone when combined with other information. As you suggest, a username is likely to be personal data because in lots of cases it is used as a unique ID and is used by the same person across multiple sites to identify them.

Re: GDPR – A Practical Guide for Developers (2017)

#165
post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't have to delete these logs when someone emails you if they're still useful for those purposes. You do need to delete those logs eventually though, and you need to disclose how often that is. It can be ten years if you want. That sort of argument has worked pretty well for Disney and friends when it comes to extending copyright indefinitely and yet not technically violating the US constitution's "temporary" w…

> How can anyone possibly make a reasonable, intelligent, a priori assessment of how long that data will be useful for that kind of purpose? By first coming to grips with the fact that this isn't your data. Keeping data is always a risk. You risk being hacked and jeopardising losing control of people's personal data. The longer you keep it, the longer you are putting that data at risk. How long can you be expected to…

By first coming to grips with the fact that this isn't your data...

The trouble is that you haven't adopted any objective or actionable position here. It's easy to pass the buck with more questions. What small organisations need is simple, verifiable answers. The absence of such answers from authoritative sources is possibly the single greatest criticism being made of the GDPR.

Why do you say something is not necessarily true when I have already given this exact reason?

You said it was good advice to mask off the bottom bits of the IP address. I don't think that is good advice in general, for the reason I gave: either the full address has a legitimate use for identifying specific threats, or it probably isn't specific enough to constitute controlled personal data in the first place. Either way, it's unclear what benefit derives from masking part of it.

No, it requires keeping the two or three requests for data or erasure posted to you, or emailed to you.

Sorry, but again I can't see how your reply fits with anything I wrote. What point were you trying to make here?

Re: GDPR – A Practical Guide for Developers (2017)

#166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The GDPR applies to european citizens living outside Europe. You have a fire in your kitchen, and instead of addressing it, you're closing the door. From the inside. [Edit: And to be clear, if I ever heard about a site pulling this sort of shit, I would be extremely compelled to issue GDPR requests towards it. This mindset amuses exactly nobody except you.] Edit 2: I'm being a little snarky here, so here's a bit of a…

The GDPR applies to european citizens living outside Europe. The EU would like to think so. Whether it actually can enforce its law extra-territorially is an entirely different question, the answer to which most likely depends on the nature of any formal agreements it has with other relevant jurisdictions and/or the local law in those jurisdictions. And to be clear, if I ever heard about a site pulling this sort of s…

> Moreover, if compliance with the law is so onerous that small organisations can't reasonably be expected to do it anyway, that's a pretty clear case that the law is too strong.

The text on the GDPR is actually super reasonable. The whole thing is pretty short for how big people say it is, every article is sub 1-page, and essentially everything comes with "within reason" asterisks of various kinds (deadline extensions, "appropriate for context", "doesn't apply if request is unreasonable", etc).

So no, small organizations can absolutely be expected to follow it.

What's happening is some americans here are simply having culture shock. In Europe, the concept that consumers have strong protections and that businesses have responsibilities is neither new nor uncommon.

> Isn't that also being a smartass with the law?

Not really no. Some provisions of the GDPR are continuous, but most of them are what consumers can request of you (their data, deletion/update of their data, etc). Most of the things people freak out about is stuff that doesn't have to be handled until you get your first request.

If you are a one-man shop, aren't handling a lot of personally-identifiable information and in general don't have a big site, you won't have a problem following it. None of GDPR requires that you build automated systems for everything, as other commenters have pointed out.

All this is just restoring some sanity in a world where far too many businesses don't give a crap about their customers.

Re: GDPR – A Practical Guide for Developers (2017)

#167
post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes you say that there's no agreement as to what it means? It feels like I see this sort of view expressed quite frequently. One fundamental problem is that the GDPR, if interpreted literally and fully enforced to the letter, is absurdly onerous for any small organisation and allows for fines that pose an existential threat without any requirement for proportionality. Defenders of the GDPR, including some of t…

Sure, I see where you're coming from. I guess we'll just have to wait and see whether data protection authorities start dropping 20 million Euro fines on people from day 1 for breaches of the law. My view and instinct is that this won't happen. Even with the relatively low level of fines at present, in the UK for example the Information Commissioner's Office has rarely reached the limit. However, can you give me spec…

Sure, I see where you're coming from. I guess we'll just have to wait and see whether data protection authorities start dropping 20 million Euro fines on people from day 1 for breaches of the law. My view and instinct is that this won't happen.

Of course it won't, but the unlikelihood of the extreme position doesn't make the broader risk of an excessive or heavy-handed response any better.

Also, can you give me examples of heavy-handedness by regulators and courts in relation to EU rules?

Sure: one of my own businesses received a letter from a national tax authority in another EU member state shortly after the new VAT rules for digital sales came in, alleging that we had committed serious tax offences, demanding payment of money we couldn't possibly afford by a deadline that wouldn't even allow time for consulting lawyers or accountants, and threatening immediate and very scary action against us if we did not comply. At first, we thought it must be some kind of hoax, but then the terrifying reality that we really were being threatened by a state actor with enough power to wipe our fledgling business from existence dawned.

If you've never been on the wrong side of a government mistake, you might suggest that our concern over that letter was overblown, paranoia even. Surely no government would not only make such a mistake but then follow through and cause real damage, right? Well, writing as someone who unfortunately has previously been the victim of another serious government mistake in connection with tax affairs, and had life turned upside down for several months trying to sort it out with very real and very scary consequences, I can personally assure you that concern about the consequences when the system goes wrong is quite justified.

What detrimental effects do you think will follow from complying with GDPR compared to those who do not?

Do you mean what is the cost of compliance for those who try to comply, as compared to just ignoring the rules? The cost is all the overhead of writing documents and conducting audits and setting up systems you might never need, just so that you can tick the right boxes. There are plenty of estimates around suggesting that actually carrying out all the work suggested in black and white on the ICO's guidance for data controllers and data processors would take weeks and costs tens of thousands of pounds at a minimum. There are a lot of microbusinesses, which of course are covered by this law just like anyone else, where that represents literally their entire annual turnover and probably a substantial proportion of the total time they have available to do their work in a year.

Do you imagine that whilst some organisations strain to comply with GDPR, others will be forging ahead with new features and capturing market share?

I'm absolutely sure that will be the case, just as it was with things like the new VAT or consumer protection rules before.

As a direct personal example again, that same business I mentioned before lost weeks of developer time updating systems to comply with the EU VAT rules, including a substantial part of one of our developers' Christmas holiday because the rules came into effect right at the start of the year and guidance was still being updated just days before. We later discovered that hardly any other businesses of our size or even substantially larger were even making a serious attempt to comply, essentially meaning that we had wasted all of that time and money trying to do the right thing, while others including our competitors were apparently committing tax fraud with impunity.

As another direct personal example, not only did we have to spend time and money updating systems to comply with the new consumer protection rules for online sales a few years back, we also saw a noticeable drop in conversions because of the scary legal wording we are now required (and this is directly from our lawyer) to display prominently during our checkout process, even though in reality we had always offered significantly better conditions for our customers than anything those consumer protection rules actually required anyway. And of course any competitor outside the EU was free to continue with the streamlined checkout process they had, no scary wording required.

My experience is that many businesses are not falling over backwards to comply GDPR. I certainly haven't seen businesses going 'too far' in looking to comply.

Are you advising my business to knowingly break the law?

Businesses that have taken sound advice have adopted a risk-based approach to GDPR compliance, assessing where the greatest risks are and acting accordingly.

What did that advice cost, and what proportion of small or micro businesses do you think have paid to receive it?

The regulatory focus will not be on small businesses, but instead on players like Google, Facebook and those losing vast quantities of user data.

So they said about the VAT rules, a few weeks before a government organisation against which my business and I had no meaningful defence threatened to destroy a large part of my life that I and others had spent several years building. You'll forgive me, I hope, if I don't take their word for it this time.

Re: GDPR – A Practical Guide for Developers (2017)

#168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The GDPR applies to european citizens living outside Europe. The EU would like to think so. Whether it actually can enforce its law extra-territorially is an entirely different question, the answer to which most likely depends on the nature of any formal agreements it has with other relevant jurisdictions and/or the local law in those jurisdictions. And to be clear, if I ever heard about a site pulling this sort of s…

> Moreover, if compliance with the law is so onerous that small organisations can't reasonably be expected to do it anyway, that's a pretty clear case that the law is too strong. The text on the GDPR is actually super reasonable. The whole thing is pretty short for how big people say it is, every article is sub 1-page, and essentially everything comes with "within reason" asterisks of various kinds (deadline extensio…

Just to be clear: I'm in the UK (as are my businesses), I'm generally an advocate of strong privacy protections, I can and do put my money where my mouth is by supporting various organisations that defend such protections, I have read the entire GDPR and a large amount of guidance related to it, I have consulted with other experts on it, and from day one my businesses have always followed careful practices in terms of how much data we collect, what we do with it (nothing at all shady) and how we store it.

In short, my view that the GDPR is bad law doesn't come from a culture shock, a lack of familiarity, or a lack of understanding or expert advice. It comes from not liking poorly-written EU laws that are open to abuse, and from direct personal experience (described in more detail in other comments, so I won't that repeat here) that such laws can actually be abused in practice with potentially serious consequences. And it comes from not liking vague regulation where you don't know how far you really have to go to comply and what the real rules of the game are, and misjudging in either direction has a cost.

Re: GDPR – A Practical Guide for Developers (2017)

#169
post #134
post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Data portability is no big deal; you can simply dump the unformatted output of your SAR process. So if you've built the SAR process you've built that as a byproduct.

Yes. Unless you have legacy systems with screen shot based SAR responses for example

The sort of companies with those legacy systems can afford the development time to extract data, and aren't looking for advice on HN.

Re: GDPR – A Practical Guide for Developers (2017)

#170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All payment orders and credit transfers to and from all accounts. For any Bitcoin address you find on the Web.

How is that personal, how is it connected to a person?

On the off-chance that you are not asking this in bad faith…

All speculators go through a KYC with their exchange, which identifies them very precisely.

All other users paste it publicly, saying “I own this account! Send me money.” And even those users often have to convert it back to fiat, which requires an exchange, which makes them go through a KYC.

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