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The U.S. Gets Less Subway for Its Money Than Its Peers

citylab.com

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Re: The U.S. Gets Less Subway for Its Money Than Its Peers

#161
post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I’m not. Your description here is fine, but it does not fit a huge chunk of the real economy, which was the point. Healthcare is just one example of many (agriculture, energy, telecom, etc.)

> Healthcare is just one example of many (agriculture, energy, telecom, etc.) That depends on the country. Energy and telecom are quite free markets in many countries, especially with local loop unbundling and separation of generation, transmission and distribution. And compare that to "Almost nothing is a free market" which you claimed. Now it's the opposite: most markets are free, but some, which depend on restrict…

No - My claim was narrower than that. In essence, that while we tend to think of the USA as very free market, in fact a huge fraction of the US economy is very much not free market. Enough so that any claim about free markets leading to strength in US economy is at least worth a second look.

At any rate I’m obviously not big articulate in the time I have for here, so I’ll leqve it at that.

Re: The U.S. Gets Less Subway for Its Money Than Its Peers

#162

I read this article, and the NYT one linked herein. But I don't understand why the MTA is involved in the nitty-gritty at all? Why can't there be 1 contract given out to some private entity, and then leave it up to the entity to build it as it sees fit.

Maintenance is the main reason. If you don't get into the nitty-gritty you cannot achieve the amazing feat of keeping a system up and running 30 years passed its design lifetime

Re: The U.S. Gets Less Subway for Its Money Than Its Peers

#163
post #61

Alternatively, US subway construction companies get more money for their subway than their peers in other countries.

This is worth upvoting AND repeating because many could think otherwise. US Subway has no funding issue. It is a pure productivity issue.

Re: The U.S. Gets Less Subway for Its Money Than Its Peers

#164
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> supposedly efficient capitalistic market Unfortunately that's not what we have when dealing with regulations, red tape, unions, and somewhat unaccountable government agencies running the show.

>> supposedly efficient capitalistic market > Unfortunately that's not what we have We're stuck because "invisible hand" zealots keep doubling down on deregulation when faced with the phenomenon of market failure, as if they stay willfully ignorant of "market failure" the market will magically start behaving.

This is a very important and valid point you are making. "Invisible hands" zealots are at the heart of the problem. Unregulated markets can and do screw up. This fact has been demonstrated and accepted by most economists now [1]. Yet, US policy makers (and apparently tax payers) seem stuck on a deregulation rampage [2]. The consequences of this have been predicted by Adam Smith. Some necessary maintenance tasks will not get done, because without regulations, they will have no immediate return on individual wealth

[1] http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/Columns/2013/06/18/7-Important...

[2] https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/president-do...

Re: The U.S. Gets Less Subway for Its Money Than Its Peers

#165
post #162

I read this article, and the NYT one linked herein. But I don't understand why the MTA is involved in the nitty-gritty at all? Why can't there be 1 contract given out to some private entity, and then leave it up to the entity to build it as it sees fit.

Maintenance is the main reason. If you don't get into the nitty-gritty you cannot achieve the amazing feat of keeping a system up and running 30 years passed its design lifetime

They don't get into the nitty-gritty of train manufacture either. And they last a long time. I'm not buying that, sorry.

Re: The U.S. Gets Less Subway for Its Money Than Its Peers

#166
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Healthcare is just one example of many (agriculture, energy, telecom, etc.) That depends on the country. Energy and telecom are quite free markets in many countries, especially with local loop unbundling and separation of generation, transmission and distribution. And compare that to "Almost nothing is a free market" which you claimed. Now it's the opposite: most markets are free, but some, which depend on restrict…

No - My claim was narrower than that. In essence, that while we tend to think of the USA as very free market, in fact a huge fraction of the US economy is very much not free market. Enough so that any claim about free markets leading to strength in US economy is at least worth a second look. At any rate I’m obviously not big articulate in the time I have for here, so I’ll leqve it at that.

You literally said: "Almost nothing is a free market".

> in fact a huge fraction of the US economy is very much not free market

Indeed, many industries depend on highly limited resources, such as land, natural resources and so on.

Re: The U.S. Gets Less Subway for Its Money Than Its Peers

#167
post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maintenance is the main reason. If you don't get into the nitty-gritty you cannot achieve the amazing feat of keeping a system up and running 30 years passed its design lifetime

They don't get into the nitty-gritty of train manufacture either. And they last a long time. I'm not buying that, sorry.

You are misinformed. They do get into that. Big, big time.

Re: The U.S. Gets Less Subway for Its Money Than Its Peers

#168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Approval voting is the future of democracy Approval voting is good for lots of things, but public elections by secret ballot aren't among them, because outside if open ballots and some kind of defined consequence of a particular vote, “approve” vs. “disspprove” doesn't mean the same thing on different ballots. For single-winner elections Condorcet-satisfying methods are pretty much the gold standard; but minimizing…

Condorcet was assumed to be the gold standard for a long time, but then in the year 2000, Warren Smith's Bayesian Regret figures showed that actually Score Voting (aka Range Voting) was better with any mixture of strategic or honest voters. http://scorevoting.net/BayRegsFig.html Approval Voting is extremely competitive in terms of performance, and _dead simple_. There is actually a theorem that Approval Voting will a…

> Condorcet was assumed to be the gold standard for a long time, but then in the year 2000, Warren Smith's Bayesian Regret figures showed that actually Score Voting (aka Range Voting) was better with any mixture of strategic or honest voters.

What such simulations consistently miss is the information problem facing range voting (approval voting has a similar problem; preference systems don't entirely lack information problems but they are much smaller.) And that is that, contrary to simulations where preferences are based on quantified utility and there is a clear and consistent relationship between that and ballot markings on a numerically scored ballots, real world preferences are ordinal preferences which, while they do vary in intensity, are not consistently quantifiable, resulting in radically different score ratings for the same preferences by different voters. (There's quite a lot of research showing that numerical rating systems in all domains have this problem.)

> Approval Voting is extremely competitive in terms of performance, and _dead simple_.

Approval Voting again suffers from an information problem like range voting; there's no consistent mapping from actual preferences to ballot markings. This is easily solved if you are doing open-ballot voting for a group activity—eithet treating “approve” as a binding commitment to participate if the approved action is chosen or “disapprove” as a binding opt-out nearly resolved the information problem. In scenarios like that, Approval is a great system.

Likewise, Range Voting is great in a scenario where your score is a commitment to contribute an amount of resources proportional to the rating if the option is chosen.

But when you are voting with secret ballots in public elections, these information-problem mitigations don't apply.

> No comparison exists between the best PR methods and the best non-PR methods, so it's still very much an open question.

Comparisons in actual government satisfaction between countries do exist and show that proportionality of outcomes is key. See, e.g., Lijphart’s Patterns of Democracy. The absence of flawed, limited, abstract mathematical comparisons that ignore key features of the real world is not particularly a problem.

> And you may have to get Score Voting or Approval Voting to get PR in the USA anyway.

The article making that case considers the federal situation ignoring the possibility of bottom-up reform from the states, which is possible because many states permit the citizenry to bypass the politicians to institute reforms from the ballot box directly. And bottom up reform is desirable anyway.

> A significant fraction of the world's major electoral procedures experts support Approval Voting. E.g. www.electology.org/approval-voting

I don't see any support for that claim on that page.

> I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on the book "Gaming the Vote" by William Poundstone.

I haven't read it, but unless the book's own promotional copy substantially misrepresents the argument it makes, I can't imagine I'm missing much of value. Arguing that US Presidential elections going to a candidate other than the most preferred is due primarily to spoiler effects on simple majority elections and that a solution to that would satisfy both the left in the right ignores completely the existence, original purpose, and continued structural effect of the Electoral College.

Re: The U.S. Gets Less Subway for Its Money Than Its Peers

#169
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No True Scotsman is about moving goalposts within a conversation. Bringing up, say, a lack of transparent pricing for commodity services (x-rays or pregnancy tests, for example) isn't a No True Scotsman fallacy.

Ok, it my be pushing it a little bit - but the point is that the US economy is chock full of things like the healthcare system. You can’t easily argue that these are just outliers and the “real” economy is extremely free market. They are, in fact, completely normal parts of how the economy works. Arguing the converse would be precisely the no true Scotsman fallacy.

Who's arguing that the American economy is exceptionally free market? It's certainly not centrally controlled as much as in other places, but I'm not sure "free market" is any more accurate. Large sectors (probably even a majority) of the economy is heavily regulated, monopolistic, monopsonistic, oligopolistic, etc.

The original point, that it's not fair to blame the free market for the dysfunction in the American healthcare system, is still a valid one. A main point is that "shopping around", even for commodity procedures, isn't really possible. Also, there aren't many remedies for consumers caught in undesirable contracts with health insurers. Quitting a job or moving states to fire an insurer is wholly unreasonable.

Re: The U.S. Gets Less Subway for Its Money Than Its Peers

#170
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No - My claim was narrower than that. In essence, that while we tend to think of the USA as very free market, in fact a huge fraction of the US economy is very much not free market. Enough so that any claim about free markets leading to strength in US economy is at least worth a second look. At any rate I’m obviously not big articulate in the time I have for here, so I’ll leqve it at that.

You literally said: "Almost nothing is a free market". > in fact a huge fraction of the US economy is very much not free market Indeed, many industries depend on highly limited resources, such as land, natural resources and so on.

  You literally said: "Almost nothing is a free market".
Yes I did, in a broader context, which it is commonly assumed the reader is following.

The things distorting these markets in the US are typically nothing as simple as land, natural resources, etc... more they are policy decisions and politics. Suggesting otherwise is facile.

That really is the last I'll say on the issue.

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