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Courts: Violating a Website’s Terms of Service Is Not a Crime

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Re: Courts: Violating a Website’s Terms of Service Is Not a Crime

#161

Post by WillReplyfFood »

asfdsfggtfd wrote: post #104
kbos87 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A pirated copy doesn’t need to equate to a lost sale in order for it to be stealing. You took something of value that was created or owned by someone else. Whether it’s a physical or nonphysical good is completely beside the point.

Look it's not stealing - stealing is a concept related to physical goods. That doesn't mean that it is right. Piracy is still wrong even though it is not stealing. And the GP seems morally confused. Sharing FLOSS software is very very different morally to pirating games.

If i look at the effects of piracy - which is a humanity happy and busy without environmental damage, and the damage which is one guy not getting to buy his third yacht- yes, thats a good trade. Its also one of the reasons why most governments of this world are in so lackluster pursuit of piracy.

Why would one want to take away the opium from the masses?

Re: Courts: Violating a Website’s Terms of Service Is Not a Crime

#162

Post by davchana »

Mindwipe wrote: post #133
Asooka wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know why people pirate, having pirated a lot of software and games in my time, so I won't really feel bad about it. Most people will buy the game if they can, but the world economics are such that for 90% of your potential user base, 60$ represent an insurmountable financial investment. Which is partly why Steam with its frequent discounts and region-specific pricing is so effective at combating piracy. So yeah, if…

> Most people will buy the game if they can, but the world economics are such that for 90% of your potential user base, 60$ represent an insurmountable financial investment. Bulllllllshiiiiiiiiit. > As just one example - consider game rentals. Consoles have incredibly low piracy rates, but a healthy (or at least used to be) game rental scene. If someone can only give me 5$ for my game, why should I snub that money? T…

$60 in my local currency Indian Rupees is about ₹3800, my one person, single's monthly food groceries bill.

Re: Courts: Violating a Website’s Terms of Service Is Not a Crime

#163

Post by Endy »

analognoise wrote: post #153
Endy wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If I took your journal entries from your room, and copied them all, and put them on the internet - that's not stealing, because I returned the journal? No, that's still theft. No, that's merely duplication and proliferation of media and information into the public domain; information wants to be free & media calls for an audience. The sole concern at that point would be how you gained access to the media - did you…

>information wants to be free & media calls for an audience That's a nice bumper sticker, but also a bunch of shit. So the nudes you take with your wife, demand to be free and an audience? The photos of your children in the tub demand to be free, and an...audience? Reality doesn't fit on a bumper sticker. "If you are depriving someone of a basic foodstuff, and their only means of procurement and providence is legally…

> So the nudes you take with your wife, demand to be free and an audience? The photos of your children in the tub demand to be free, and an...audience? Reality doesn't fit on a bumper sticker.

If I have them stored via digital media and don't provide it with significant forms of security, then yes - and it's my own shame if something "goes wrong". Besides, why would I take pictures or video of that if I wasn't going to look at them later? That's part of why I never got up in arms about the Apple photo breach; people stored images on a remote server whose security they were unable to monitor.

> Oh right, so every society that's ever existed. Gotcha. Glad that doesn't happen on whatever planet you live on.

Never said there's been a just society so far.

Re: Courts: Violating a Website’s Terms of Service Is Not a Crime

#165

Post by pharrington »

analognoise wrote: post #155
pharrington wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If I took your journal entries from your room, and copied them all, and put them on the internet - that's not stealing, because I returned the journal? No, that's still theft." Yes, the original taking of the journal is literally depriving someone else of their object. A future return of the object clearly does not mean the original deprivation never happened. The point you're making about unauthorized distribution…

My arguments are based on ownership - you didn't create the (game, book, journal entries, code, artistic item, music, whatever), but somehow because you've decided to take advantage of content creators by belittling their ownership to declare theft a victimless crime. Also, people are convinced by arguments they have an emotional connection to - not postulates. You're always instructing the reader how to feel - if th…

If you're going to reply to a comment, reply to the words written. My comment doesn't describe anything as victimless crimes.

I have a rough understanding of human persuasion and decision making. Persuasion is not my goal. I am trying to engage with other people, read their knowledge and opinions, compare those to what I understand about reality, express my understanding, and when there are inconsistencies, attempt resolving them with some combination of verification of facts and revealing of core principles. Often times, this leads to me realize I had an incorrect thought about something, so I update my understanding of the world accordingly.

Re: Courts: Violating a Website’s Terms of Service Is Not a Crime

#166

Post by aidenn0 »

executesorder66 wrote: post #115
tedunangst wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet people get all worked up about "stolen" passwords. I still have my password. What's the problem?

> "stolen" passwords That's also wrong. What actually happened is that a database of password hashes was _copied_ not stolen. So yes your password wasn't stolen. The problem is a security/privacy problem. If someone made a copy of your house keys, that's a problem, because now they can enter your house. But they didn't steal your keys, they copied them. Same with the password. They didn't steal your password, but the…

Identity "theft" is also one of those confusing terms. We already have a word for it: impersonation.

Though in fact sometimes things can be stolen via identity theft; in particular if someone abuses your credit it can deny you future credit, so they have stolen the good-will or trust of creditors in that case. This would be an example of an intangible good being stolen.

Re: Courts: Violating a Website’s Terms of Service Is Not a Crime

#167

Post by thaumasiotes »

asfdsfggtfd wrote: post #103
tedunangst wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd put my Twitter handle in the game to build a following so even more people download my next free game. Make it up in volume.

∞ × 0 = 0

∞ × 0 is one of the most bog-standard indeterminate forms, not 0.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indeterminate_form

Re: Courts: Violating a Website’s Terms of Service Is Not a Crime

#168

Post by prepend »

kbos87 wrote: post #65
pwaai wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As someone that was prevented from distributing Linux at high school because the administrators thought that any copying was piracy I remember having this discussion with in HS and also at work with people who were convinced pirating a PSX game is same as stealing, while not realizing there is no evidence that suggests a pirated copy means a lost sale (people can't afford it in places like Brasil where they still p…

A pirated copy doesn’t need to equate to a lost sale in order for it to be stealing. You took something of value that was created or owned by someone else. Whether it’s a physical or nonphysical good is completely beside the point.

This is an interesting philosophical point that I think needs to be debated and established in law. Stealing is based on natural law of depriving someone of a thing.

If I make a copy you may value that, but the copy doesn’t deprive you of anything. What if you whistle a tune and I think about it? I’ve deprived you of value you by paying nothing but thinking of your whistled tune over and over.

I don’t think it’s an accepted truth that just because someone creates something that they must be compensated. Especially if it costs money for society to enforce.

There’s tons of these mental exercises. If I add a TOS to this comment saying it’s worth $1k and by reading, you must pay; do you owe? Did you steal my value without my consent?

That’s why stealing is based on clear harm through depriving of property. And fair use was established to allow reasonable noncommercial use.

My biggest complaint is that IP maximalism is not something society as a whole agreed to. It seems that IP holders just decided for society.

Re: Courts: Violating a Website’s Terms of Service Is Not a Crime

#169

Post by prepend »

executesorder66 wrote: post #91
kbos87 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A pirated copy doesn’t need to equate to a lost sale in order for it to be stealing. You took something of value that was created or owned by someone else. Whether it’s a physical or nonphysical good is completely beside the point.

> You took something of value that was created or owned by someone else. Really? So they no longer have it, because I took theirs? Or, do they still have their copy, and I have mine, and I didn't take anything that was owned by them? If I make an exact copy of your car and drive off in it, are you gonna complain that I stole your car?

They may not even know that you have it. So it’s like giving money a natural right and enforcing it.

A very odd mindset, but one I encounter frequently.

They did this class in my kid’s 5th grade where someone came in and said making tapes was illegal. And asked about parents who copied stuff. I was so pissed but the school got a tv or DVD player or something stupid.

Re: Courts: Violating a Website’s Terms of Service Is Not a Crime

#170

Post by prepend »

analognoise wrote: post #154
dragonwriter wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So you narrowly redefine theft to not include intellectual property or any non-physical good. Theft in law generally only applies to tangible personal property, not intangible personally property and not real property. That's not a redefinition, just the long-existigng definition.

Did you plug "intellectual property theft" into Google before you came to this conclusion?

Try it and look at laws vs non-laws.
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