Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

singletrackworld.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

161–170 of 522 posts

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#161

Post by QuarterReptile »

aidenn0 wrote: post #149
mrb wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

« make it a 4-way stop » You may be unaware, but 4-way stop signs are very uncommon outside of the US. In fact, in the UK they have always been formally prohibited by the Department for Transport in 2002. As a European driver, I discovered the existence of 4-way stop signs when I moved to the US, and I have always found them dangerous in a counter intuitive way: drivers are so used to 4-way stop intersections, that t…

At least 4-way stops have the same basic rules throughout the US (cars go in order of arrival). 2-way stops do not : Consider the case where the first car to arrive is turning left, but cannot do so due to traffic on the main road. Then a car arrives from the opposite direction going straight. Who is supposed to go first? In some states it's the car that reached the stop sign first, in others it's the car going strai…

All this assumes drivers who know and follow rules. Where I live, I have to wait in a suicide lane to make a left, and sometimes drivers at the stop sign will try to steal the right of way to make their left first. And then there's the problem that it's accepted practice here to point your car and inch toward traffic as a way to request they give you an opening, despite the very significant risk involved in doing so.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#162

Post by phicoh »

alkonaut wrote: post #137
nraynaud wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They do exist in Germany.

I'm guessing they actually do exist almost everywhere, but they are rare, and only typical in very slow traffic areas such as residential block intersections (see google map in next post) where you can't motivate building a roundabout or adding lights. Anywhere else they would be replaced by either traffic lights or a roundabout. Most importantly, you would avoid at almost any cost to cross two rural roads in a flat…

In the Netherlands, a 4 four stop would lead to an instant deadlock. I.e., if you reach a stop sign then all traffic on the road you approaching has priority.

There are no rules for solving this conflict. Because you cannot have two roads that have priority over each other.

The Dutch equivalent of a 4 way stop is a raised intersection. Basically an intersection that is one big speed bump. Traffic is forced to slow down but otherwise normal priority rules apply.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#163

Post by QuarterReptile »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #122
mrb wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

« make it a 4-way stop » You may be unaware, but 4-way stop signs are very uncommon outside of the US. In fact, in the UK they have always been formally prohibited by the Department for Transport in 2002. As a European driver, I discovered the existence of 4-way stop signs when I moved to the US, and I have always found them dangerous in a counter intuitive way: drivers are so used to 4-way stop intersections, that t…

> rolling stops What's special about a 4-way stop here? And a rolling stop is good enough to prevent a high-speed collision anyway. > assuming an intersection with a stop sign is almost always a 4-way stop Around here there is a good mix and I don't think that happens. > I prefer the consistency of my home country where every stop is a 2-way stop Well I personally hate going through 2-way-stop intersections that are…

A rolling stop is only good enough to prevent a 'high-speed collision' as judged by people wearing steel armor boxes.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#164

Post by pxndx »

thirdsun wrote: post #144
kbart wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"From personal experience you can easily navigate a roundabout at 35+ mph." If a roundabout is small enough, you can't. I have seen many small roundabouts throughout Europe that you cannot navigate without swerving faster than 20-30 km/h (which is assumed safe speed for pedestrian).

Plus, at least in my region there always seems to be some sort of obstacle blocking sight in the center of larger roundabouts. Maybe it's just a convenient place for memorials, statues, etc., but I can't help but think that slowing down drivers is at least a welcome side effect.

The obstacles are intentional. Blocking sight forces people to slow down.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#165

Post by Xylakant »

nraynaud wrote: post #125
mrb wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

« make it a 4-way stop » You may be unaware, but 4-way stop signs are very uncommon outside of the US. In fact, in the UK they have always been formally prohibited by the Department for Transport in 2002. As a European driver, I discovered the existence of 4-way stop signs when I moved to the US, and I have always found them dangerous in a counter intuitive way: drivers are so used to 4-way stop intersections, that t…

They do exist in Germany.

I don't think so. The literal text from the StVo for the STOP sign (VZ 206) is

    Ge- oder Verbot

    1. Wer ein Fahrzeug führt, muss anhalten und Vorfahrt gewähren.
And that strongly implies that at least one of the other streets has the right of way. I've also never seen one.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#166

Post by bsder »

jdavis703 wrote: post #91
bsder wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The longer I use the road in any function (cycling, driving, walking, etc), the more I am convinced that the vast majority of people are not competent drivers. You are almost right. ALL people are incompetent drivers. Driving is a task of 99% boring routine habit punctuated by 1% of moments requiring extreme engagement. Humans are not engineered for these kinds of swings. But computers are. And that's why the takeo…

No one should never really routinely be in a situation where driving requires extreme engagement. If anyone is in this situation routinely (that means for every hour they drive, 36 seconds is an extreme situation), it means the driving regularly does not meet the conditions of the situation they are in. For example if someone feels like they are almost always hitting "impulsive" pedestrians, it means they need to dri…

I drive on California freeways. I have at least one "event" every time I drive from San Diego to Los Angeles.

Normally, that just means I change lanes or reduce my speed.

The problem is that if I MISS that event, now I'm having to swerve or slam my brakes when the consequences of that event become immediate.

And humans are TERRIBLE when multiple events happen simultaneously.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#167

Post by laymil »

GordonS wrote: post #159
aidenn0 wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least 4-way stops have the same basic rules throughout the US (cars go in order of arrival). 2-way stops do not : Consider the case where the first car to arrive is turning left, but cannot do so due to traffic on the main road. Then a car arrives from the opposite direction going straight. Who is supposed to go first? In some states it's the car that reached the stop sign first, in others it's the car going strai…

When I did my driving lessons many many years ago (UK), I was told that the car turning left would have right of way, because they weren't crossing a carriage way.

Left is across traffic in the US. Different sides of the road.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#168

Post by Marazan »

hamandcheese wrote: post #134
ryandrake wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a motorist, the 4-way stop is the most disruptive and maddeningly inefficient traffic control device in the municipality's tool chest. How much fuel and how many brake pads are consumed because towns just default to this kind of intersection. There are many better options (as others have listed in this thread) for almost all traffic situations. Always reaching for the 4-way stop is lazy and irritates motorists.

There are a lot of situations where a two way stop would cause traffic to get backed up in the direction of the stop sign. A great example is a 4 way stop at my former high school. Twice a day, everyone came and left causing a bit of a traffic jam. A two way stop would leave people in one direction waiting indefinitely, whereas a 4 way kept things chugging along rather nicely in both directions.

Roundabout.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#169

Post by alkonaut »

phicoh wrote: post #162
alkonaut wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm guessing they actually do exist almost everywhere, but they are rare, and only typical in very slow traffic areas such as residential block intersections (see google map in next post) where you can't motivate building a roundabout or adding lights. Anywhere else they would be replaced by either traffic lights or a roundabout. Most importantly, you would avoid at almost any cost to cross two rural roads in a flat…

In the Netherlands, a 4 four stop would lead to an instant deadlock. I.e., if you reach a stop sign then all traffic on the road you approaching has priority. There are no rules for solving this conflict. Because you cannot have two roads that have priority over each other. The Dutch equivalent of a 4 way stop is a raised intersection. Basically an intersection that is one big speed bump. Traffic is forced to slow do…

> In the Netherlands, a 4 four stop would lead to an instant deadlock. I.e., if you reach a stop sign then all traffic on the road you approaching has priority.

In a 4 way the same priority rules apply thatwould have applied if there were no stop signs. Obviously the signs have to make clear to everyone that it is a 4 way stop, so that you don't have 4 cars all thinkning they are in a 2 way stop. This is usually done with an additional sign under the STOP sign. After that it just works like any no-stop intersection, you yield to e.g. the car to the right (Sweden) or the first car to arrive (US) etc.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#170

Post by __david__ »

thirdsun wrote: post #142
hamandcheese wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a lot of situations where a two way stop would cause traffic to get backed up in the direction of the stop sign. A great example is a 4 way stop at my former high school. Twice a day, everyone came and left causing a bit of a traffic jam. A two way stop would leave people in one direction waiting indefinitely, whereas a 4 way kept things chugging along rather nicely in both directions.

That is an intersection that needs traffic lights. And if it's just twice a day, default the less used direction to red and have it switch to green only if a car is actually waiting. As a european 4 way stops seem really inefficient to me. If the intersection isn't that busy a 2 way stop (or no stop at all) favouring the more frequently used road is the obvious choice. If it's a busy 4 way stop however, can you reall…

> Also, roundabouts are the superior 4-way stops.

Except on the “compact real estate” axis. A plain intersection is always going to be smaller.

Post reply on HN