James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google • Hacker News Board

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#161

Post by lilycaliber » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 7:05 PM UTC

john_moscow wrote: post #87

He doesn't have a choice really. With the PR mess he got himself into, no big company will ever hire him. Imagine the possible headlines "Microsoft hires the James Damore, the male supremacy advocate fired from Google". Nope, regardless the technical skill or his actual personality, his public image is forever ruined. So he realistically has a choice between becoming a paid speaker for fringe ultra-right organization…

Ummm very interesting "trick" comment youve made here! [but youve outed your true intentions. LOL] HE HAS AN IMMENSE OppORTUNITY if he wins a settlement, to START UP HIS OWN COMPETING OPEN SOURCE SEARCH ENGINE ENTITY!! I HOPE HE DOES!! IF I HAD THE FINANCES I WOULD WELCOME HIM AND 1000s of OTHERS who are JUST WAITING FOR THE CHANCE to MAKE IT BETTER AND MAKE IT RIGHT [you know, just like all the progressives claim they wanted?] LOLOL F*n hypocrite troll of doom you are nothing more! Great biz modeller,you are eh?

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#162

Post by DoofusOfDeath » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 7:05 PM UTC

thenayr wrote: post #140

john_moscow wrote: post #87

He doesn't have a choice really. With the PR mess he got himself into, no big company will ever hire him. Imagine the possible headlines "Microsoft hires the James Damore, the male supremacy advocate fired from Google". Nope, regardless the technical skill or his actual personality, his public image is forever ruined. So he realistically has a choice between becoming a paid speaker for fringe ultra-right organization…

Or, you know, he could realize what a monumental fuck up he made and try and make a difference for the better. The dude literally let himself be paraded around by the alt-right and neo-nazi groups as a hero. -----------EDIT below--------------- Zero sympathy for this dirtbag. He's un-hireable because he deserves to be. Future advice for Damore wannabees When alt-right Twitter agrees with your world-views, you're doin…

I'm not sure how many people have the PR-savvy needed to avoid that kind of problem.

So even if the consequences of not avoiding that landmine are awful, I'm not sure it's fair to castigate him for that.

(N.B.: I haven't looked carefully into how he handled that affair, so my comment might be misinformed.)

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#163

Post by xeeeeeeeeeeenu » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 7:05 PM UTC

lukev wrote: post #116

Veen wrote: post #3

From the article: > women may not be equally represented in tech because they are biologically less capable of engineering Why do news outlets persistently misrepresent what he actually said? I've read his memo and just about every news article says it contains claims that it doesn't. I have no view on whether he's right or not, but I remain shocked at the misrepresentation of his views throughout the tech media.

What? Did we read the same memo? One of his central points is that the representation gap between men and women in technology is due to different biological distributions. From the memo: > I’m simply stating that the distribution of preferences and abilities of men and women differ in part due to biological causes and that these differences may explain why we don’t see equal representation of women in tech and leader…

>Scientists who study this stuff (including those cited by Damore) can and do talk about it, and the consensus is that biological sex differences are not that big of an effect, certainly not enough to explain the gender disparity in tech. What effects there may be are absolutely dominated by sociological factors.

[citation needed]

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#164

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 7:05 PM UTC

vijayr wrote: post #102

presence of Caucasians and males was mocked with ‘boos’ during companywide weekly meetings. What does this even mean? People booed simply because they were white and male? I honestly don't get it. And who did the booing?

[deleted]

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#165

Post by rndmwlk » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 7:05 PM UTC

lutorm wrote: post #114

rwcarlsen wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is not even close to what he said. Regarding abilities - he didn't say anything about any gender having greater or lesser abilities - he said "different" abilities. He didn't say that biological differences explain the gender representation - he said it may explain the gender representation - which means it also may not. He said that there are differences in the distributions of preferences and abilities of wome…

he said "different" abilities Are you seriously saying that the meaning I should take away from that quote is that women don't work in tech because of their superior ability? And the quote we're arguing about, "women may not be equally represented in tech because they are biologically less capable of engineering", also says "may". So it seems you're arguing a strawman.

It's been a while since I've read his original memo, but wasn't one of his arguments that women excel in more team based environments, and he suggested more pair based programming as one potential solution?

So an overly simplified argument might be women don't work in tech because they both prefer, and are superior in, different working environments.

What you should take away from his quote is nothing. Especially the paraphrased portion of the quote that ignores preferences. Read his memo in it's entirety and judge it in it's entirety.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#166

Post by ThrustVectoring » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 7:05 PM UTC

lukev wrote: post #131

imartin2k wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I tried to explain this in a blog post. It also irritates me why this is so consequently misinterpreted, as it makes for quite a big difference for the overall narrative. Because of course if someone would claim that an individual woman cannot be as good as an individual man in engineering (or better), that person would be an idiot. "Misunderstanding statistical distribution" https://medium.com/@martinweigert/misunde…

That's a strawman. Nobody is saying that Damore thinks every man is a better programmer than every woman. He suggested that on average men are biologically more suited to programming, and the contention of his opponents is that that is still a problematic and inappropriate thing to say.

He very clearly stated that the average male programmer is as good as the average female programmer. Please don't insinuate otherwise by stripping away some of the semantics Mr. Damore used - he used it for a reason to make a more precise claim than you're criticizing.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#167

Post by imartin2k » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 7:05 PM UTC

lukev wrote: post #116

Veen wrote: post #3

From the article: > women may not be equally represented in tech because they are biologically less capable of engineering Why do news outlets persistently misrepresent what he actually said? I've read his memo and just about every news article says it contains claims that it doesn't. I have no view on whether he's right or not, but I remain shocked at the misrepresentation of his views throughout the tech media.

What? Did we read the same memo? One of his central points is that the representation gap between men and women in technology is due to different biological distributions. From the memo: > I’m simply stating that the distribution of preferences and abilities of men and women differ in part due to biological causes and that these differences may explain why we don’t see equal representation of women in tech and leader…

" It's because he's just another brogrammer...."

After having read two lengthy pieces about him and his case, I think you are showing a lack of empathy and willingness to put yourself into some other person's shoes. You might disagree with his actions and world view. But you should maybe not be so quick with your labeling. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/nov/16/james-dam... http://quillette.com/2018/01/05/empathy-gap-tech-interview-s...

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#168

Post by anonemouse145 » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 7:05 PM UTC

rifung wrote: post #94

keerthiko wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

His memo was more along the lines of "women are less represented in tech because the industry does not favor their traits which are possibly a result of biological differences"

The article seems to have it correct to me? From the memo: "I’m simply stating that the distribution of preferences and abilities of men and women differ in part due to biological causes and that these differences may explain why we don’t see equal representation of women in tech and leadership" preferences and abilities he says.

Yes. And?

He suggests ways to alter Google's engineering jobs to suit abilities females are more likely to excel at, such as making work more social.

Its almost like different doesn't mean worse.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#169

Post by dragonwriter » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 7:05 PM UTC

falcor84 wrote: post #13

Is there actually any US law against discrimination based on political stance?

No, but California has a law against employers controlling, directing, or coercing political activity (or abstention therefrom) by employees (Labor Code Secs. 1101-1102.)

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#170

Post by viridian » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 7:05 PM UTC

thenayr wrote: post #140

john_moscow wrote: post #87

He doesn't have a choice really. With the PR mess he got himself into, no big company will ever hire him. Imagine the possible headlines "Microsoft hires the James Damore, the male supremacy advocate fired from Google". Nope, regardless the technical skill or his actual personality, his public image is forever ruined. So he realistically has a choice between becoming a paid speaker for fringe ultra-right organization…

Or, you know, he could realize what a monumental fuck up he made and try and make a difference for the better. The dude literally let himself be paraded around by the alt-right and neo-nazi groups as a hero. -----------EDIT below--------------- Zero sympathy for this dirtbag. He's un-hireable because he deserves to be. Future advice for Damore wannabees When alt-right Twitter agrees with your world-views, you're doin…

I largely agreed with the memo. I have coworkers and friends who fell on either side of the camp, but more in the agree camp than disagree. Should we just purge half the developers in Columbus for Silicon Valley wrongthink?

edit: looks like thenayr updated his post a couple of times since my reply. When written only the first two lines were present.