The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer • Hacker News Board

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#161

Post by Symmetry » Sun, Jan 07, 2018, 7:37 PM UTC

stupidcar wrote: post #34

Niksko wrote: post #8

This article is going to rub lots of people the wrong way, I suspect, but it's level headed, well reasoned and well written. Although I ultimately disagree with some of the conclusions drawn at the end, (particularly: > Because contemporary moral codes delineate women as vulnerable or marginalised, we stop seeing them as individuals with unique talents and idiosyncrasies, but as representatives of a victimised class.…

> Acknowledging that women are 'vulnerable or marginalised' shouldn't remove their individuality, you can easily have both, but that's beside my point here) I don't think you can easily have both, and this problem underlies much contemporary political conflict. At its core is a pervasive hypocrisy: people readily engage in broad, often negative, stereotyping about groups they oppose, or are not a member of, while agg…

Nate Silver has written a lot on his blog recently about how difficult it is to get people to think statistically. As an example, when he predicted Trump had a 30% chance of winning people complained that he was wrong because he had said Hillary would win and she hand't. Likewise, I fear that if you tell people that Group A is 20% more likely to X than group B what will be remembered is that A's do X but Bs don't.

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#162

Post by sturgill » Sun, Jan 07, 2018, 7:41 PM UTC

stupidcar wrote: post #34

Niksko wrote: post #8

This article is going to rub lots of people the wrong way, I suspect, but it's level headed, well reasoned and well written. Although I ultimately disagree with some of the conclusions drawn at the end, (particularly: > Because contemporary moral codes delineate women as vulnerable or marginalised, we stop seeing them as individuals with unique talents and idiosyncrasies, but as representatives of a victimised class.…

> Acknowledging that women are 'vulnerable or marginalised' shouldn't remove their individuality, you can easily have both, but that's beside my point here) I don't think you can easily have both, and this problem underlies much contemporary political conflict. At its core is a pervasive hypocrisy: people readily engage in broad, often negative, stereotyping about groups they oppose, or are not a member of, while agg…

This exists in all human interactions. A simple example, take this political posturing: "This bill is too complicated; we haven't had time to read it. This is too important to be rushed."

Reference to health care or tax reform?

It's hard not to conclude that everyone is a hypocrite.

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#163

Post by lazyasciiart » Sun, Jan 07, 2018, 7:43 PM UTC

dcow wrote: post #135

noobermin wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What evidence do we have that such a perspective is removing their individuality? The argument those of us on the left make is that people's individuality, their talent etc are disregarded because of their class/attributes etc., and society as it is set-up punishes some classes while rewarding others, rather than rewarding individuals as individuals.

Plenty of level-headed people on the right see things exactly that way too. What kills us, or at least me (I'll identify for the purpose of this argument), is trying to figure out why people "on the left" are so focused on fixing the symptoms by way of "reverse discrimination" (i.e. affirmative action) instead of focusing on ensuring that we continue to see people as unique individuals instead of–what we feel is the…

Why affirmative action? Because if one person takes everything from another person, is it fair to say "you know, that was bad, and it shouldn't have happened, but since that's in the past we should just make sure that we treat both of them the same now"?

(I will also note that all the work I see being done to end 'regular' discrimination, a.k.a get to the state where we do see people as individuals and don't act based on racial biases, is being done by the left. The arguments that affirmative action is a bad distraction from our current utopian racial blindness that we should 'continue' are based on a baffling disregard for all the evidence for the current existence of racism).

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#164

Post by lazyasciiart » Sun, Jan 07, 2018, 7:45 PM UTC

sturgill wrote: post #162

stupidcar wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Acknowledging that women are 'vulnerable or marginalised' shouldn't remove their individuality, you can easily have both, but that's beside my point here) I don't think you can easily have both, and this problem underlies much contemporary political conflict. At its core is a pervasive hypocrisy: people readily engage in broad, often negative, stereotyping about groups they oppose, or are not a member of, while agg…

This exists in all human interactions. A simple example, take this political posturing: "This bill is too complicated; we haven't had time to read it. This is too important to be rushed." Reference to health care or tax reform? It's hard not to conclude that everyone is a hypocrite.

It's a lot easier when you look at the actual differences in the two examples. Could you give me the timeline of the two bills?

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#165

Post by digi_owl » Sun, Jan 07, 2018, 7:45 PM UTC

klipt wrote: post #150

katzgrau wrote: post #81

From one of the comments (author, Nathan Spears): > People with Asperger’s can navigate social situations remarkably well after they learn “the rules” of social interaction. That's my experience. I too, was socially awkward kid who taught himself basic programming by reading computer manuals around the age of 10. I constantly got picked on though out elementary and middle school. In high school it got a little better…

> As an aspie, you're probably pretty damned good at actively learning the traits that seem to come naturally for other people. Makes me wonder how much of "neuro-diversity" is actually just "neuro-plasticity". Maybe many aspies are actually just "neuro-typicals" who were bullied and lost faith in social interactions, and thus spent much of their early life on geeky interests instead, developing better technical skil…

Not likely.

Aspergers is not about a disinterest in social interaction, it is a "blindness" to the unspoken "rules" of social interaction. Most kids will given just a bit of time pick up the indications in body language etc that means one has hogged the ball and should pass it around. And aspie will not, at least not in the instinctual way that most humans do.

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#166

Post by aklemm » Sun, Jan 07, 2018, 7:49 PM UTC

yorwba wrote: post #128

dominotw wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it 'beside the point', I was specifically adressing the comment in GP > delineate women as vulnerable or marginalised If we don't do that then wouldn't the obvious question be "why have women accomplished so little compared to men?". You comment perfectly illustrates that point > the point here is a pretty specific type of treatment by men toward women that is unarguably bad behavior. You are saying "women as…

> "why have women accomplished so little compared to men?" You seem to assume that is the case, but maybe the answer is that you do not value or notice the accomplishments of women? The Nobel prizes honor one very specific kind of achievement, one that many (not all) women do not particularly strive for. You don't tend to get a Nobel as a pediatrician, but society needs pediatricians anyway. The gender wage gap is mo…

Let's also not forget the huge amount of work women do successfully for our society that is unrewarded and unpaid.

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#167

Post by eropple » Sun, Jan 07, 2018, 7:49 PM UTC

digi_owl wrote: post #165

klipt wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As an aspie, you're probably pretty damned good at actively learning the traits that seem to come naturally for other people. Makes me wonder how much of "neuro-diversity" is actually just "neuro-plasticity". Maybe many aspies are actually just "neuro-typicals" who were bullied and lost faith in social interactions, and thus spent much of their early life on geeky interests instead, developing better technical skil…

Not likely. Aspergers is not about a disinterest in social interaction, it is a "blindness" to the unspoken "rules" of social interaction. Most kids will given just a bit of time pick up the indications in body language etc that means one has hogged the ball and should pass it around. And aspie will not, at least not in the instinctual way that most humans do.

I got the feeling that he meant the self-diagnosed types?

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#168

Post by lazyasciiart » Sun, Jan 07, 2018, 7:49 PM UTC

mpweiher wrote: post #134

vkou wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is one very obvious critique of the patriarchy, that is also advanced by feminism. Traditional, toxic masculinity does not recognize 'non-manly' roles for men, their emotional and intellectual needs, etc. It does not, however, follow, that it does not repress women. "But not all mens!" is true, but is also a bit of a red herring. Most members of both genders suffer it to their detriment.

If the "patriarchy" is perpetrated by both men and women and negatively affects both men and women, maybe "patriarchy" is a bit of a misnomer?

Why? Nobody has ever thought that a society where only men can be kings must mean that all men are kings.

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#169

Post by catdograbbit » Sun, Jan 07, 2018, 7:50 PM UTC

Semkas wrote: post #18

I have aspergers, and empathize with the feeling that society doesn't much care about our struggle (or, for that matter, knows how to deal with anyone who isn't neurotypical). One thing I have come to realize though (and I know this will be controversial on here) is that SV and tech in general is this special place where people with limited social skills can go to work for really high salaries to create things of oft…

> I remember reading in a similar article that many "classical-liberal" types think that the wage-gap between man and woman may be caused by the fact that woman are naturally less competitive. Meaning that they are less careerist. This is of course a failure of meritocracy, in the same way that charisma often trumps skill at a job (which is the big problem for anti social men).

How is this a failure of the meritocracy? To me, this is the meritocracy working correctly and succeeding. A competitive person will naturally work harder to improve their skills because they have a greater desire to be the best. In a true meritocracy, you'd expect them to outperform less competitive people.

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#170

Post by Veedrac » Sun, Jan 07, 2018, 7:54 PM UTC

stupidcar wrote: post #34

Niksko wrote: post #8

This article is going to rub lots of people the wrong way, I suspect, but it's level headed, well reasoned and well written. Although I ultimately disagree with some of the conclusions drawn at the end, (particularly: > Because contemporary moral codes delineate women as vulnerable or marginalised, we stop seeing them as individuals with unique talents and idiosyncrasies, but as representatives of a victimised class.…

> Acknowledging that women are 'vulnerable or marginalised' shouldn't remove their individuality, you can easily have both, but that's beside my point here) I don't think you can easily have both, and this problem underlies much contemporary political conflict. At its core is a pervasive hypocrisy: people readily engage in broad, often negative, stereotyping about groups they oppose, or are not a member of, while agg…

> All of this is probably just an inherent flaw in human cognition, and likely unfixable, without some kind of attempt at species-wide genetic engineering that completely reconfigures our co-operative behavior.

The rationality community would argue that this is solvable through education, perhaps even that it is a symptom of poor education.