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Fiat is Effective: fiat for the crypto crowd [pdf]

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Re: Fiat is Effective: fiat for the crypto crowd [pdf]

#161

In the words of Patrick McKenzie's tweet linking to this pdf‏, "Hey look, someone took the time to explain to cryptocurrency enthusiasts why the rest of us perceive money as working". For those singing the praises of cryptocurrency I pose this question: Say the United States decides to allow decentralized cryptocurrencies to become the dominant medium of exchange in the US; say it even gets rid of the $USD. What prob…

Well, whether or not it's a problem depends on who you're asking, but: Remember in the first Captain America movie when his first role in the military was on a tour raising money for the war? That was actually a thing at that point in time. You had to actually convince people to invest or give money to fund a war. The USD was tied to gold in the real world and they couldn't just create more. Nowadays, we don't have t…

The president can’t spend money without authorization from congress (see Authorization for Use of Military Force congress keeps renewing) It doesn’t matter where the money comes from. Congress doesn’t just control how tax receipts can be spent, they also control how much can be borrowed and when, and directs the president in how to use it. And neither the president nor congress control monetary policy.

Re: Fiat is Effective: fiat for the crypto crowd [pdf]

#162

Some of these arguments assume a single fixed-supply cryptocurrency, instead of the ecosystem of cryptocurrencies we actually have, which is more like Hayek's proposal for competing privately-issued currencies. He thought it would be stable without the need for active management. As a payment system I think cryptocurrency is vastly better; the more I use my hardware wallet, the more I'm horrified by legacy systems th…

A few questions:

> As a payment system I think cryptocurrency is vastly better; the more I use my hardware wallet, the more I'm horrified by legacy systems that work by giving vendors the ability to withdraw as much as they want. It's a fundamentally insecure system, made sort of workable by layers of hacky mitigations.

Do you think cryptocurrencies are vastly better because they don't allow transaction peers to withdraw arbitrarily from your wallet, or for some other reason?

If the former, do you consider cryptocurrencies to be better than simply implementing this functionality in fiat systems like ACH?

> Reversibility could also be implemented in a token smart contract, if the market really does value that enough to put a central admin in control.

Why do I want a smart contract for this, instead of just trusting that the vendor will be heavily penalized for trying to arbitrarily take funds from my account? In fact, why do I want anything to be trustless? In a trustless transaction system, there is less transparency: it might be harder to take more funds than allowed from my account, but in the event the vendor finds a way to do it, what is my recourse without a trusted third party for arbitration?

It feels like a lot of this debate circles back to one group of people saying, "Cryptocurrencies are great for when you don't trust the government" and the second group of people responding, "Yes, but why would I not trust my government or the people I transact with, and don't I have worse concerns than my currency if that's honestly the case?"

From my perspective, perfect feels like the enemy of good here: you sacrifice efficiency in the average case for catastrophe in the worst case. The problems solved by solutions that don't require trust seem to be sort of decently solved in the average case using brittle technical features (e.g. smart contracts that prevent a vendor from double dipping your personal wallet); on the contrary, we have solutions for those now in basically every stable country's fiat currency, and fiat currencies at least solve the worst case, but cryptocurrencies do not (e.g. your smart contract was hacked and your entire account is gone, but no one knows who the vendor was that did it).

Basically, I trust smart contracts less than I trust my government, and to be honest I don't endorse strong trust in my government either way. I kind of want my currency to be backed by people with guns and a complex legal system instead of a distributed ledger and whatever half-baked smart contract system is used by the vendors. Stripe has one of the best security teams in tech right now, and routinely hires security consultants from excellent firms like NCC Group. If Stripe put out a new cryptography library, I would default assume it's broken in some way, at the very least in implementation.

Whenever the "Stripe of cryptocurrency payments" emerges, I am basically going to assume that it's critically broken and will be catastrophically exploited after a huge number of users and vendors are vulnerable. Solving a fully technical smart contract system to abstract away all of these concerns (like arbitrary ACH transfers) isn't feasible in the current state of software security.

Re: Fiat is Effective: fiat for the crypto crowd [pdf]

#163

Some of these arguments assume a single fixed-supply cryptocurrency, instead of the ecosystem of cryptocurrencies we actually have, which is more like Hayek's proposal for competing privately-issued currencies. He thought it would be stable without the need for active management. As a payment system I think cryptocurrency is vastly better; the more I use my hardware wallet, the more I'm horrified by legacy systems th…

>instead of the ecosystem of cryptocurrencies we actually have, which is more like Hayek's proposal for competing privately-issued currencies.

That's interesting, it's the first time I hear about this concept. I just barely skimmed a few articles about the concept but I'm not sure how this would solve the problems in TFA. In particular deflation: if I need to invest in a currency why would I even elect to use an inflationary one? What would be the incentive?

Also a currency is only as good as the things it can buy, if you end up having to convert your WhateverCoin to BTC or ETH before spending, does it change anything? You could use special-purpose crypto currencies to replace frequent-flier miles, starbucks credit and other privately owned "currencies", but what would be the point of that?

>As a payment system I think cryptocurrency is vastly better; the more I use my hardware wallet, the more I'm horrified by legacy systems that work by giving vendors the ability to withdraw as much as they want. It's a fundamentally insecure system, made sort of workable by layers of hacky mitigations.

Is it a problem in practice? If a vendor overcharges me I complain to my bank, the charge is reverted and then the bank takes care of dealing with the misbehaving party. If anything it's the opposite that's usually the problem in practice, people using chargeback fraudulently.

Meanwhile in the crypto world if your wallet is compromised or if you get scammed you're on your own.

Bitcoin is great for buying drugs but for legit purchases Visa is a whole lot more convenient. It's quicker, easier and offers much stronger guarantees. From the vendor's point of view it's less great but as TFA points out "Sellers bear costs from reversibility, but those are offset by increased buyer confidence." No citation though, unfortunately.

That's one of the weaknesses of crypto IMO, it's all about "trustless" transactions, except that when you actually use your currency to buy something outside of the blockchain at some point you have to trust somebody (or somebodies) to actually provide the goods or services you're purchasing. All the systems that try to work around that so far seem to simply reinvent the banking system with extra steps (trusted 3rd parties etc...).

Re: Fiat is Effective: fiat for the crypto crowd [pdf]

#164

Some of these arguments assume a single fixed-supply cryptocurrency, instead of the ecosystem of cryptocurrencies we actually have, which is more like Hayek's proposal for competing privately-issued currencies. He thought it would be stable without the need for active management. As a payment system I think cryptocurrency is vastly better; the more I use my hardware wallet, the more I'm horrified by legacy systems th…

>> the more I use my hardware wallet, the more I'm horrified by legacy systems that work by giving vendors the ability to withdraw as much as they want

While this is still the case for online transactions, in-person payments with chip cards and contactless methods like contactless EMV, apple pay and android pay do not allow this.

Re: Fiat is Effective: fiat for the crypto crowd [pdf]

#165

In the words of Patrick McKenzie's tweet linking to this pdf‏, "Hey look, someone took the time to explain to cryptocurrency enthusiasts why the rest of us perceive money as working". For those singing the praises of cryptocurrency I pose this question: Say the United States decides to allow decentralized cryptocurrencies to become the dominant medium of exchange in the US; say it even gets rid of the $USD. What prob…

> Say the United States decides to allow decentralized cryptocurrencies to become the dominant medium of exchange in the US; say it even gets rid of the $USD. What problem do you think this would solve? (assuming the US gov desires to continue all other operations in exactly the same manner as it does currently). I don't think the second condition "assuming the US gov ..." is compatible with the first. My objections…

Printing money would indeed no longer be an option for governments.

But their main source of income are taxes. And why would taxes change?

>and if the government comes to your door and says "give me 10 bitcoins [...]", you're going to do your best to vote those people out

Why would that be different with 10 bitcoins than with 10 thousand dollars?

Re: Fiat is Effective: fiat for the crypto crowd [pdf]

#166
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>- civil asset forfeiture; How would cryptocurrencies prevent the police from seizing your private keys? They can already throw you in jail if you refuse to provide passwords, or the keys themselves.

Current situation: Government takes your money and you must sue to get it back. Crypto: Government is incapable of taking your money and must prosecute in order to coerce you to turn it over. And you could still refuse and accept your jail time. Edit: People replying to me are missing the point. This is about the case where the government is wrongfully taking your money. Under the current system your money can be sei…

And then you get held in jail indefinitely.

And they sold your shoes.

Re: Fiat is Effective: fiat for the crypto crowd [pdf]

#167
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, that is not at all the argument. The argument is that you cannot have an economy run on a deflationary currency, which bitcoin is. An effective economy requires a bit of inflation and the ability to issue new money when necessary for socio-political reasons. Crypto currencies are a cult, though the underlying tech is interesting.

Even that raises interesting questions, though. That only works as long as people choose or are de-facto forced into using the state currency. What if enough people would rather have their money increase in value than allow others in power to deflate it for "necessary socio-political reasons?"

Then you would not have an economy.

Re: Fiat is Effective: fiat for the crypto crowd [pdf]

#168

For anyone interested in understanding what money is, and the downside of commodity money without a central bank, Allyn Young wrote this[1] in 1924[2]. It talks about the gold standard, bi-metalism and decentralized banking that was taking place in the US in the XIXth century. [1] https://fr.scribd.com/document/251483136/The-Mystery-of-Mone... [2] it's just 11 years after the creation of the Fed. He had a good unders…

Curious; why XIXth century instead of 19th century?

Re: Fiat is Effective: fiat for the crypto crowd [pdf]

#169
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, that is not at all the argument. The argument is that you cannot have an economy run on a deflationary currency, which bitcoin is. An effective economy requires a bit of inflation and the ability to issue new money when necessary for socio-political reasons. Crypto currencies are a cult, though the underlying tech is interesting.

What if they fork it? I agree with your main point though.

You are just delaying the problem, not actually fixing it and who forks and when? Unless you change the way crypto currencies are made and allow for unlimited creation of new money, it cannot work as a general purpose currency.

Re: Fiat is Effective: fiat for the crypto crowd [pdf]

#170

Some of these arguments assume a single fixed-supply cryptocurrency, instead of the ecosystem of cryptocurrencies we actually have, which is more like Hayek's proposal for competing privately-issued currencies. He thought it would be stable without the need for active management. As a payment system I think cryptocurrency is vastly better; the more I use my hardware wallet, the more I'm horrified by legacy systems th…

We had privately created money in Europe for centuries. It was a disaster.
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