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Spain Fines Facebook Over Tracking Users Without Consent

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Re: Spain Fines Facebook Over Tracking Users Without Consent

#161
post #13

Facebook tried to pull a similar gimmick in India called "Free Basics". It was dealt with criticism and the regulatory authority in India was smart enough to reject the proposal. Reliance, one of the sheepskin corporation in India wanted to embrace Free Basics with Facebook but could not. Now Reliance is trying a similar act with "Jio" cellphones. Its a good thing that many countries are realizing that US based monop…

In other words there should be crystal clear regulations that says what Monopolies(and even normal companies) can and cannot do. The problem is having those regulations in most countries can become a bureaucratic nightmare.

1) There is no incentive for the Govt to get this right.

2) Besides, govt bureaucrats don't have the ability now (IMHO) to think rationally and get to the best decision

3) Govt has no business to get in the way of voluntary transactions between two adults

Re: Spain Fines Facebook Over Tracking Users Without Consent

#162
post #13

Facebook tried to pull a similar gimmick in India called "Free Basics". It was dealt with criticism and the regulatory authority in India was smart enough to reject the proposal. Reliance, one of the sheepskin corporation in India wanted to embrace Free Basics with Facebook but could not. Now Reliance is trying a similar act with "Jio" cellphones. Its a good thing that many countries are realizing that US based monop…

It makes me weirdly happy as an American to see it happen. What happens when instead of massive, boring, soulless, mediocre corporations like Facebook serving 2 billion sharecroppers, we've got multiple or even dozens of smaller networks serving regions and niches? That has the potential for innovation we can't begin to understand. Facebook is akin to McDonald's not only spreading internationally but also replacing a…

I don't get this excitement we have to control other people's lives. We should not interfere with voluntary transactions. Free markets serve niches not Govts

Re: Spain Fines Facebook Over Tracking Users Without Consent

#163
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It makes me weirdly happy as an American to see it happen. What happens when instead of massive, boring, soulless, mediocre corporations like Facebook serving 2 billion sharecroppers, we've got multiple or even dozens of smaller networks serving regions and niches? That has the potential for innovation we can't begin to understand. Facebook is akin to McDonald's not only spreading internationally but also replacing a…

>Facebook is akin to McDonald's not only spreading internationally but also replacing all other restaurants once it gets in a country. Sources for McDonlads replacing all other restaurants. Maybe you haven't traveled as much but for me I always check out local McDonalds, hardly actually eating there. One of the reason they have been successful is adopting local tastes. Costa Rica has Gallo Pinto in addition to fries…

I concur with your McD thinking. I think you've got FB and Google wrong. I'm not saying they're saints, but in their self interest, they serve their customers. So they've their customers' interests in mind

If people cared about privacy that much, they should use some other network. People weigh the trade-offs of benefits vs costs and still choose to use FB and Google.

Re: Spain Fines Facebook Over Tracking Users Without Consent

#164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In contrast to humans, who have the right to live, companies have the privilege to exist. I agree with your sentiment, but I consider being alive the greatest privilege.

privilege implies that someone has the right to take it away

Wouldn't that inhibit someone's else's rights? Companies are made of people after all, no?

Re: Spain Fines Facebook Over Tracking Users Without Consent

#165
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those programs are mostly cargo culting and fail to address the essential aspects of an entrepreneurial environment. It's a way to seem like they're doing something rather than making the hard changes that would piss off some powerful special interests and rentiers.

One thing I hear about the startup environment in Europe is that investors are more conservative and risk-averse compared to those in the US. Would you elaborate on the "essential aspects of an entrepreneurial environment", and the hard changes that would need to be made to improve the situation? Also curious to hear more about these powerful special interests and "rentiers" - any specific examples in mind?

> Europe is that investors are more conservative and risk-averse compared to those in the US.

I would think that is because the payouts are much lower. And with lower payouts, options are worth less to attract talent at below market (salary) rates.

Re: Spain Fines Facebook Over Tracking Users Without Consent

#166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> I'd really like to know why it's better for me to have no internet at all than some but not all? Because under the pretext of giving you internet, Facebook is creating shadow profiles about me. Now I would like to know why it is more important for you to get stuff for free than my privacy? All you need to do, of course, is get Facebook to promise me that it won't create these shadow profiles about non-users. At th…

Free Basics puts no obligation on its users to visit or use Facebook at all. They can browse Accuweather, BBC News, Bing, Wikipedia and other localised websites all day long if they please. For free.

>> Free Basics puts no obligation on its users to visit or use Facebook at all.

Here is a list of possible ways Facebook can triangulate information about people who are not active on Facebook even without controlling access to the internet:

1. User telemetry based on your browser when you visit any page which has a Like button

2. If you have ever used WhatsApp and deleted it, seeing who has your phone number on their contacts list

3. If you have ever used WhatsApp and deleted it, seeing who has your phone number on their WhatsApp app

4. Being tagged in a photo (that your friend captured) based on a Facebook account which you don't even actively use

5. Seeing where they tagged you if that info is easy to infer from the image's metadata

6. Seeing where they tagged you based on the check in location

7. Seeing where they tagged you, based on the comment they might leave on the photo

8. Seeing who has your email address on their contacts list and associated a name to it

9. Inferring your name from someone's contacts and matching it to the phone number so that

10. They can check if a second person has the same phone number or same email address under the same name or a small variant.

11. Learning about life events which concern you based on other people's WhatsApp conversations about you since they usually mention you by name

12. Text mining of WhatsApp conversations for a list of names which they don't yet have in their database and possibly inferring the relationship type

Now they basically have a "shadow profile" of a (person's name + phone number) even if that person has never gone near Facebook their entire lives. If there are additional details about you in someone else's contacts, imagine how much easier you just made it for Facebook.

12. If you agree that the shadow profile is fairly easy to create once the apps controlled by FB (FB, Messenger, WhatsApp, Instagram) reach a sufficient critical mass, you probably understand that they will collect every piece of information they can and associate it with the right shadow profile.

My guess is, I don't cover a fraction of the techniques they use already (simply because at a certain scale, I bet they identified even bigger patterns that we cannot even see), and the list is already too uncomfortable for someone who doesn't want to have anything to do with Facebook. As a programmer, you probably know that most of these are trivial to implement. Your problem will be "too much noise", definitely not "too little signal". No worries. An eager horde of people are everyday helping Facebook to cut down the noise and increase the signal to noise ratio of their shadow profiles.

Now, imagine what happens when Facebook becomes the primary means to access the internet for an entire region.

Re: Spain Fines Facebook Over Tracking Users Without Consent

#167
post #62
post #2

I don't have anything against regulations and fines to keep monopolistic companies in check, but that being said, as an European, I can't help but feel a little appalled that there's so much focus on this and so little on actually creating European Googles and Facebooks.

If Google and Facebook aren't good, I'm not sure that the European version would be good..

good point, something which is not noted when people talk about such things :)

Re: Spain Fines Facebook Over Tracking Users Without Consent

#168
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because browsing facebook selected sensored information is what poor people would like to do? I also grew with no internet for entirety of my childhood, but i never wished for free internet that could let me browse some social networking site.

Wouldn't this then mean, to each his own. Why should one person's preferences be imposed on others?

Where is the personal preference when facebook is selecting what you should be looking at?

Re: Spain Fines Facebook Over Tracking Users Without Consent

#169
post #76

Facebook could just ask its users "Do you agree to be tracked, even without your consent?" and they 'd still say yes. If it mattered, people would have switched to one of the open source alternatives. This fine serves more as governmental virtue signaling than anything else.

You don't have to be a Facebook user for Facebook to track you. They create "shadow profiles" for non-users.

Re: Spain Fines Facebook Over Tracking Users Without Consent

#170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

privilege implies that someone has the right to take it away

Wouldn't that inhibit someone's else's rights? Companies are made of people after all, no?

But they have certain "privileges" granted by society (i.e. by consensus of the majority of he population). This only works for as long as the society deems companies beneficial to the wellbeing of the people; once that ceases to be true, the rights or privileges of the company/-ies should be modified or revoked.
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