Noam Chomsky Joins Faculty at University of Arizona • Hacker News Board

Re: Noam Chomsky Joins Faculty at University of Arizona

#161

Post by mindcrime » Sat, Aug 19, 2017, 8:46 PM UTC

reader5000 wrote: post #97

kenjackson wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chomsky had stated earlier that there are experts to read who cover such things. The kid kept asking variations of the same question. If I were Chomsky I would have been done after a couple of responses.

"These 'experts' agree with me" is not an argument. Indeed, clearly Chomsky did not want to engage the argument so ceasing responding would have been logical.

"These 'experts' agree with me" is not an argument.

What's your point in saying so? I would guess that Chomsky could care less about winning an Internet "argument" with some random dude. From his point of view, it's entirely reasonably to say "go read the literature and come back when you're more informed". If the other party doesn't want to do that, they have no moral claim to Chomsky's continued participation in the discussion.

Re: Noam Chomsky Joins Faculty at University of Arizona

#162

Post by thomasfortes » Sat, Aug 19, 2017, 9:07 PM UTC

epx wrote: post #98

em3rgent0rdr wrote: post #5

Chomsky is a great critic of social issues like imperialism, manufactured consent, and state capitalism. However he has been proved devastatingly wrong about Venezuela and as of today won't admit the problems with state socialism. I hope his new students realize this.

He made some stupid comments about privatization in Brazil in the 1990s. He never lived here, he did not know the absolute mess that Brazil was before the tenure of president FHC. He seems to think that state bureaucracy, inefficiency, inflation, public spending and privileges of public servants are problems so minor that can be ignored. Chomsky is intelligent and points real problems in USA and capitalism, but he is…

Brazil was a mess, but it simply makes zero sense to say that the young lefties thinks that our country was a paradise under a right wing military dictatorship, most of them agrees that our country was always riddled with corruption, bureaucracy and a ton of other problems.

On the aspect of privatization, some of that was necessary, but the main criticism is not about the privatization per se, but the way it was handled, giving strategic companies for almost nothing.

If you want to criticize the left, please don't resort to lies just because most of the HN aren't brazilians.

Re: Noam Chomsky Joins Faculty at University of Arizona

#163

Post by epx » Sat, Aug 19, 2017, 9:28 PM UTC

thomasfortes wrote: post #162

epx wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He made some stupid comments about privatization in Brazil in the 1990s. He never lived here, he did not know the absolute mess that Brazil was before the tenure of president FHC. He seems to think that state bureaucracy, inefficiency, inflation, public spending and privileges of public servants are problems so minor that can be ignored. Chomsky is intelligent and points real problems in USA and capitalism, but he is…

Brazil was a mess, but it simply makes zero sense to say that the young lefties thinks that our country was a paradise under a right wing military dictatorship, most of them agrees that our country was always riddled with corruption, bureaucracy and a ton of other problems. On the aspect of privatization, some of that was necessary, but the main criticism is not about the privatization per se, but the way it was hand…

you have a different opinion than mine, it does not make me a liar.

Re: Noam Chomsky Joins Faculty at University of Arizona

#164

Post by cardiffspaceman » Sat, Aug 19, 2017, 9:32 PM UTC

lqdc13 wrote: post #15

BuckRogers wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's why whenever I speak to someone and they have a strong opinion I like to ask them how many books they've read on that subject. It's almost always zero. You can pretty much instantly discard anyone like that as it's a decent baseline litmus test. If you really cared about something, you would read at least one if not multiple books on the subject. Anything less is just laziness and someone who wants to get an e…

I've found that the book medium invites for a lot of opinions from an author and usually selective references to prove some point. Sort of the same reason that when you read scientific papers, you don't want to just read those written by a single lab. When I want to find out how something works I usually read a meta analysis or a review in a highly rated journal in the field. That way you get to see everyone's opinio…

I think it pays to read long-form book reviews about a book if one is concerned that the book has the sort of flaws you mention. I read "From Bauhaus to Our House," a book by Tom Wolfe on modern architecture, and then I went to the local university library and looked up reviews about it. I found many pointers to follow, of which only a few could be followed up that day. Plus in that case I could have researched the various architects mentioned in the book.

Re: Noam Chomsky Joins Faculty at University of Arizona

#165

Post by chillwaves » Sat, Aug 19, 2017, 9:45 PM UTC

Stratoscope wrote: post #116

thethirdone wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Instead he generously chose to engage someone who had already made their conclusion and just wanted to "debate" without actually ceding to any points (take a shot any time OP says "liberal" or "PC"). Chomsky was not prepared to cede any points either. In many places, he does not respond to the probing questions asked of him at all (this is assuming the poster didn't add them in afterwards) instead opting to insult…

Readable version... Poster: > 1: By what mechanism do white supremacist elements impose American black culture on the American black community today? > 2: For example, how is white supremacy responsible for single-parent families in the American black community? Allegedly single-parent rates have skyrocketed since the Civil Rights Movement. Chomsky: > Racism is quite extreme today, and by many measures increasing. I…

Re: Noam Chomsky Joins Faculty at University of Arizona

#166

Post by thomasfortes » Sat, Aug 19, 2017, 10:32 PM UTC

epx wrote: post #163

thomasfortes wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Brazil was a mess, but it simply makes zero sense to say that the young lefties thinks that our country was a paradise under a right wing military dictatorship, most of them agrees that our country was always riddled with corruption, bureaucracy and a ton of other problems. On the aspect of privatization, some of that was necessary, but the main criticism is not about the privatization per se, but the way it was hand…

you have a different opinion than mine, it does not make me a liar.

When you say that young lefties thinks that Brazil was a paradise during a time when a right wing military dictatorship ruled the country, you are stating a fact that simply isn't true, not an opinion.

And to be honest, a lot of young right wingers are the ones that miss the dictatorship and say that the country was better in that time, in which case what you said couldn't be more distant from the reality.

Re: Noam Chomsky Joins Faculty at University of Arizona

#167

Post by reader5000 » Sat, Aug 19, 2017, 10:59 PM UTC

mindcrime wrote: post #161

reader5000 wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"These 'experts' agree with me" is not an argument. Indeed, clearly Chomsky did not want to engage the argument so ceasing responding would have been logical.

"These 'experts' agree with me" is not an argument. What's your point in saying so? I would guess that Chomsky could care less about winning an Internet "argument" with some random dude. From his point of view, it's entirely reasonably to say "go read the literature and come back when you're more informed". If the other party doesn't want to do that, they have no moral claim to Chomsky's continued participation in th…

Simply that it was odd that Chomsky continued the conversation when he didnt want to actually explain his point of view. His point that "why some people are poor" is well settled science answerable with a literature review is not being honest either.

Re: Noam Chomsky Joins Faculty at University of Arizona

#168

Post by reader5000 » Sat, Aug 19, 2017, 10:59 PM UTC

1024core wrote: post #138

reader5000 wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The purpose of an argument is to show why something is true. Saying an 'expert' believes something is true does not show why it is true nor that it is true. Deferring to Wiles is just ceasing to argue.

I know I should be "deferring to Wiles" here too, since you are oblivious to what's being said in response. There are certain things that we take for granted: like gravity. Or a round Earth. If some flat-earther comes over and starts asking you to prove that the Earth is flat, or that gravity is not just little gremlins pulling on your jeans, then I think it's safe to "defer to an expert".

"Why some people are poor" is not as conclusively understood as the curvature of the earth.

Re: Noam Chomsky Joins Faculty at University of Arizona

#169

Post by klarrimore » Sat, Aug 19, 2017, 11:16 PM UTC

Hasknewbie wrote: post #21

klarrimore wrote: post #3

As a UofA grad I can tell you the hippies down there are going to go absolutely apeshit. The university is half Rob Gronkowski and half Cesar Chavez. The Gronks all leave after school but the Cesar's all stick around the university and think, act, and look like Noam. He'll fit right in.

>> and think, act, and look like Noam So they are low-key, patient, and make thorough, very detailed responses when debating?

I didn't say anything negative about him or his debating style. I'm just saying I'm not so surprised he chose UofA. Tons of east coast aging hippies fall in love with the desert, get a mansion in the foothills, then only come down into the city for the university dressed like they're on a fucking safari.

Re: Noam Chomsky Joins Faculty at University of Arizona

#170

Post by epx » Sat, Aug 19, 2017, 11:52 PM UTC

thomasfortes wrote: post #166

epx wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you have a different opinion than mine, it does not make me a liar.

When you say that young lefties thinks that Brazil was a paradise during a time when a right wing military dictatorship ruled the country, you are stating a fact that simply isn't true, not an opinion. And to be honest, a lot of young right wingers are the ones that miss the dictatorship and say that the country was better in that time, in which case what you said couldn't be more distant from the reality.

This is a nostalgic credo among youngsters that are too far into either side of political spectrum: that there was some sort of 'order' or 'grand plan' for the country until the 1980s. Obviously I don't subscribe to that credo.

Let's not forget that local left worships Getúlio Vargas, which was a right-wing dictator and a full-fledged fascist (a true fascist that fortunately was not a Nazi puppet, which made a lot of difference!). Also, the local military regime belonged firmly to the right, but borrowed some ideas from the left (strong presence of the state in economy, auto-sufficiency in manufacturing). Many times the impeached Dilma was compared to General Geisel; they even committed the same errors regarding the economy.

Anyway I am not sure if you want to debate or just calling people liars.