Filecoin: A Decentralized Storage Network [pdf] • Hacker News Board

Re: Filecoin: A Decentralized Storage Network [pdf]

#161

Post by Kubuxu » Thu, Jul 20, 2017, 7:19 PM UTC

Taek wrote: post #157

AlexCoventry wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not skeptical, yet, just surprised -- haven't had a chance to dig in. My main concern at this stage is the replication setup time, which needs to be computationally expensive for the strategy to prevent generation attacks. That can possibly be amortized over long-term storage, but it sounds like it might be a long amortization period.

Replication setup also likely could be optimized by ASICs, so attackers willing to spend money on specialized hardware may have a 1000x advantage/asymmetry when it comes to generation attacks

Sealing part of the Proof of Replication will in big part require disk IO and won't be possible to do in parallel so ASIC or FPGA won't help you much.

Re: Filecoin: A Decentralized Storage Network [pdf]

#162

Post by _prometheus » Thu, Jul 20, 2017, 7:35 PM UTC

agl wrote: post #117

Unfortunately, one of the important citations ([5], "Proof of Replication") does not appear to be available. (Or, at least, Google cannot find it.)

It's coming shortly (days), it's a WIP that needs significant polish, but the core result is there.

Re: Filecoin: A Decentralized Storage Network [pdf]

#163

Post by kadavero » Fri, Jul 21, 2017, 12:40 AM UTC

Eerie wrote: post #136

kadavero wrote: post #108

So, child porn that nobody can delete?

Encrypted files that nobody but the owners can decrypt.

1 Submit child porn 2 Publish the key 3 ????? 4 Profit

Re: Filecoin: A Decentralized Storage Network [pdf]

#164

Post by rainboiboi » Fri, Jul 21, 2017, 2:38 AM UTC

diggan wrote: post #156

hudon wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ask the CTO of any Fortune 100 company what they're doing to mitigate such an outage. What do you think they will answer? Option A: cross-region replication, regular backups, and secondary service provider failover plan Option B: decentralize everything on people's laptops

Option C: cross-region replication, regular backups and multiple service provider failover plan in a secure, decentralized storage network. Don't have to be choosing either "Businesses To Big To Fail(tm)" or "Average Joe" when you can have "Many businesses"

Totally agree with this. This might be a better option as part of risk management to de-risk the scenario of complete wipeout across providers.

Re: Filecoin: A Decentralized Storage Network [pdf]

#165

Post by sigmagerta » Fri, Jul 21, 2017, 9:30 AM UTC

agl wrote: post #117

Unfortunately, one of the important citations ([5], "Proof of Replication") does not appear to be available. (Or, at least, Google cannot find it.)

is this expected to magically resolve the problem of storing raw data and computing proofs lazily?

Re: Filecoin: A Decentralized Storage Network [pdf]

#166

Post by sidthekid » Sat, Jul 22, 2017, 12:24 PM UTC

calafrax wrote: post #28

sharemywin wrote: post #13

I still go back to this paper for questions about decentralized storage: http://blog.dshr.org/2017/07/is-decentralized-storage-sustai...

There is another macro-economic issue here: With a decentralized trustless system you have to assume a higher failure rate for nodes than with a central trust based system. If you assume a higher failure rate you have to replicate data more extensively to achieve reliability. If you have to replicate data more extensively then decentralized will always be more expensive than centralized.

Also, if decentralized storage systems become very popular, then people will buy lesser storage space with their computers, because they expect storage space to be cheaply available online. In that case, the number of individual hosters would reduce and big companies/pools would step, making it less decentralized.

Re: Filecoin: A Decentralized Storage Network [pdf]

#167

Post by alwillis » Tue, Jul 25, 2017, 7:22 AM UTC

strictnein wrote: post #14

Opening up my hard drive to store unknown materials? Imagine trying to explain any of this to a cop, judge, or jury.

Filecoin runs on top of IPFS and with IPFS, you don't host anything you didn't chose to host.

Re: Filecoin: A Decentralized Storage Network [pdf]

#168

Post by alwillis » Tue, Jul 25, 2017, 8:07 AM UTC

hudon wrote: post #101

tshaddox wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If there was a benefit to breaking down a file rather than replicating it, AWS would be using this efficiency to provide a better service. Are you suggesting that AWS is doing every possible thing that would increase efficiency, or in other words, that AWS' services are optimally efficient? That seems very unlikely.

Yes. This is how capitalism works. If there is an inefficiency in the market, there is an opportunity for a competitor to beat you on price or quality. If AWS is not incorporating these efficiencies into their tech, then Microsoft Azure will and beat them by providing either a cheaper or higher quality service. If FileCoin actually worked as a better technology, Google or some big name would say they will start using…

1. Filecoin is the monetization layer for IPFS; on IPFS you never store stuff you didn't agree to store. So there won't be 3D printed gun designs, porn and other illegal media on your drives unless that's what you wanted.

2. Filecoin enables a transparent market for storage with bids and asks for storage, so you'll know what you're paying compared to AWS, Azure, etc. and you can decide what to do.

3. I'm on Comcast; if some guy two towns over from me is running his Filecoin-enabled IPFS node also on Comcast, there's going to be less latency than hitting an AWS or Google data center thousands of miles away.

4. My DigitalOcean droplet is ~200 miles away from me; trace route says it's 10 hops away. I can see the network name for Comcast two towns over from that's just 4 hops away. The other guys may be big but they can't change the speed of light.

5. Because IPFS is content addressed, I don't need to know where the content I want is located; thanks to the distributed hash table, any node that has that data can respond to my request.

6. IPFS and therefore Filecoin still work even if you can't reach the internet backbone… you can still get stuff via your neighborhood mesh network.

Re: Filecoin: A Decentralized Storage Network [pdf]

#169

Post by alwillis » Tue, Jul 25, 2017, 8:12 AM UTC

hudon wrote: post #107

JauntyHatAngle wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Yes. This is how capitalism works. If there is an inefficiency in the market, there is an opportunity for a competitor to beat you on price or quality. If AWS is not incorporating these efficiencies into their tech, then Microsoft Azure will and beat them by providing either a cheaper or higher quality service." Not that I'm saying Filecoin or a decentralised storage coin is in any way the way forward or even a comp…

It is not just AWS. The data storage market is saturated with competitors fighting hard to come out on top. Amazon, Apple, Box, Dropbox, Google, Microsoft are all in this and some of these companies have massive R&D budgets, have a history of delivering cutting edge tech and have strategies to overcome the Innovator's Dilemma (which is the problem you're describing). It is precisely because these companies are not en…

Again, Filecoin monetizes IPFS. The guy in the same Starbucks as you may have the file you want, so it could be faster to get it from him than from some data center.

For example, see https://partysha.re

Re: Filecoin: A Decentralized Storage Network [pdf]

#170

Post by alwillis » Wed, Jul 26, 2017, 8:47 PM UTC

JohnJamesRambo wrote: post #20

I'm still confused why I would want my storage to be decentralized. No I don't want my files spread on thousands or millions of computers no matter how encrypted etc.

Why is decentralized and distributed file storage critical for a better web?—https://coincenter.org/entry/why-is-decentralized-and-distri...