Not Just Mike Pence. Americans Are Wary of Being Alone with the Opposite Sex • Hacker News Board

Re: Not Just Mike Pence. Americans Are Wary of Being Alone with the Opposite Sex

#161

Post by throwaway688 » Mon, Jul 03, 2017, 7:09 PM UTC

seanp2k2 wrote: post #159

throwaway688 wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your conclusion sounds completely absurd, but I agree with you. In fact, even walking around in groups of 3 is dangerous if you keep talking because what you said might be interpreted as offensive and all 3 people would hear it. I guess I don't understand what you would propose as a solution... Current situation is obviously not working. Right now the following is happening: 1) Ladies get harassed by those with more…

Legitimately curious: if you walk to lunch in silence, why even go to lunch together? What would you talk about? Purely work? I'm sorry for you, that sounds like a really unfun workplace with bad culture if it's as bad as you say. Why stay there if it's that bad?

It takes a few months to find another gig. Also the main person complaining is about to leave.

Hoping things will go back to normal after that.

Re: Not Just Mike Pence. Americans Are Wary of Being Alone with the Opposite Sex

#162

Post by ryandrake » Mon, Jul 03, 2017, 8:26 PM UTC

MarkMc wrote: post #110

Spivak wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll speak up with an example from a man's perspective; it has nothing to do with attraction or religion, it's just not worth the risk. If I'm one-on-one with a woman and a misunderstanding makes her feel uncomfortable or threatened and she accuses me of misconduct or sexual harassment I'm at an enormous disadvantage without any witnesses. When even being accused could be career ending it's best to bring someone else…

> When even being accused could be career ending I'm surprised by this. Would you really be damaged if someone makes an accusation against you without any evidence?

Well, you could be fired, so it depends on whether you consider that "damaged".

Re: Not Just Mike Pence. Americans Are Wary of Being Alone with the Opposite Sex

#163

Post by ryandrake » Mon, Jul 03, 2017, 8:28 PM UTC

mc32 wrote: post #22

Spivak wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll speak up with an example from a man's perspective; it has nothing to do with attraction or religion, it's just not worth the risk. If I'm one-on-one with a woman and a misunderstanding makes her feel uncomfortable or threatened and she accuses me of misconduct or sexual harassment I'm at an enormous disadvantage without any witnesses. When even being accused could be career ending it's best to bring someone else…

I understand your PoV. I would say it would be extremely rare for a woman (or man) to make baseless accusations from uncertain interpretations. People who bring forward accusations are typically people who've had the same untoward thing done to them repeatedly. That said, one has to acknowledge there are genuinely malicious people --but they typically have a pattern and it will not be their first time making false ac…

Risk = Probability x Severity x Exposure

This is elementary risk analysis. While the probability might be low, the severity is super high (career end). So to mitigate, you reduce exposure to as close to zero as possible.

Re: Not Just Mike Pence. Americans Are Wary of Being Alone with the Opposite Sex

#164

Post by ryandrake » Mon, Jul 03, 2017, 8:41 PM UTC

SCdF wrote: post #96

swiley wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah the drink thing is definitely inappropriate.

This article and thread have been fascinating to me. I am from NZ, so maybe this is a US-cultural thing? The idea that getting a drink with a women-not-your-spouse being inappropriate is so crazy and weird to me! Do you not have female friends? How do you spend time with them?

I'm an American (male) and I find it crazy as well. I don't see anything inappropriate about any of the topics in that graph, although the work meeting strikes me as "risky" rather than "inappropriate". Reading this article feels like I'm reading about space aliens rather than my fellow human beings.

Re: Not Just Mike Pence. Americans Are Wary of Being Alone with the Opposite Sex

#165

Post by MarkMc » Tue, Jul 04, 2017, 3:31 AM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #162

MarkMc wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When even being accused could be career ending I'm surprised by this. Would you really be damaged if someone makes an accusation against you without any evidence?

Well, you could be fired, so it depends on whether you consider that "damaged".

Can you point to an example in the US where someone has been fired based on an accusation without any evidence?

Re: Not Just Mike Pence. Americans Are Wary of Being Alone with the Opposite Sex

#166

Post by dragonwriter » Tue, Jul 04, 2017, 3:53 AM UTC

MarkMc wrote: post #165

ryandrake wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, you could be fired, so it depends on whether you consider that "damaged".

Can you point to an example in the US where someone has been fired based on an accusation without any evidence?

Since the US generally has at will employment and doesn't require identifying the reasons—much less the evidence supporting them—for terminations, you would never be able to point to an example if it existed.

(Also, since the claims of the alleged victim or anyone else are evidence, it would never happen; there's always some evidence.)

Re: Not Just Mike Pence. Americans Are Wary of Being Alone with the Opposite Sex

#167

Post by abandonliberty » Tue, Jul 04, 2017, 5:42 AM UTC

learc83 wrote: post #78

When I was in college I was a team lead at Best Buy for a while. I was in charge of a mostly female team of cashiers, and I was alone with them in the cash office frequently while they counted their tills. I made one of the cashiers mad by reprimanding her, and she decided to get back at me by claiming that I grabbed her and shook her while we were in the cash office. I never touched her, and luckily we still had vid…

>they'll drop a low level employee quick just to avoid the slight possibility of looking like they aren't taking sexual harassment seriously.

I've seen a manager vanish in response to an accusation. Under normal circumstances, it would take the company weeks to update the employee listing, but an allegation of sexual harassment? poof

Re: Not Just Mike Pence. Americans Are Wary of Being Alone with the Opposite Sex

#168

Post by greenyoda » Tue, Jul 04, 2017, 6:22 AM UTC

dijit wrote: post #63

Inconel wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know it's not polite to ask about downvotes on HN but I'm also unsure why you where so quickly downvoted. I personally don't feel the same way you do, but I also don't think you said anything rude or outlandish. As a small counter to your post though, I've read some articles recently talking about the importance of general social networking and one on one mentoring in some professions with the point being made that…

Good response; I'm glad it worked out for your friend. I would agree that it might be a disadvantage for women, but conversely I would just make an effort to ensure there was _someone_ else with us, male or female. So instead of drinks 1:1 outside work, or a 1:1 meeting, It would instead be three people which mitigates both parties liability. I am a senior engineer, not a manager, but if I were a manager one on ones…

"I am a senior engineer, not a manager, but if I were a manager one on ones would be necessary, I would attempt to have HR in each 1:1 as an ass-saving measure anyway."

That doesn't sound realistic, for a couple of reasons:

1. 1:1 meetings between a manager and their staff happen on a regular basis, e.g., weekly. If HR had to attend each of these meetings, they'd never get their own work done. (HR's job is to cover the company's ass, not yours.)

2. If your employee walks into your office for a 1:1 meeting and finds someone from HR there, they'll freak out because they'll think they're about to be fired. (That's a typical situation where managers call HR for backup.)

Re: Not Just Mike Pence. Americans Are Wary of Being Alone with the Opposite Sex

#169

Post by visarga » Tue, Jul 04, 2017, 8:28 AM UTC

dang wrote: post #156

visarga wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> not the kind of discussion we want here Apparently you are an admin here. Sorry, I didn't realize you were representing me as well. I'll make sure to avoid the topic from now on, it doesn't rime with PC. I'll make sure to only debate in agreement.

It's not about choosing $ideology1 over $ideology2, it's about trying to avoid the entire genre of internet flamewar. Trying and failing, but perhaps we can fail better.

Yep. I took some time and cooled off. Incidentally I saw you defending me from a flaming comment just one day before, while inspecting my history. So I guess it's fair because it applies to everyone. Keep up the good work and you won't have to worry from me any more.

Re: Not Just Mike Pence. Americans Are Wary of Being Alone with the Opposite Sex

#170

Post by aiyodev » Wed, Jul 05, 2017, 11:57 AM UTC

eulo__ wrote: post #34

aiyodev wrote: post #20

I'm surprised so many men in here are comfortable being alone with women. You've given another person the power to put you in prison and destroy your entire life at any time without any evidence. All they have to do is make the accusation. You'll lose your job. You'll probably lose your family. You'll probably lose your freedom. It's not worth the risk.

Such an irrational fear, like worrying about getting hit by lightning on the way to the shops. Also goodluck convincing anyone that I sexually assaulted someone. People wouldn't be able to take you seriously after a claim like that.

Well, you prove my point. It's not likely that someone is going to get hit by lightning but everyone knows not to stand outside under a tree during a lightning storm. Similarly, a man should not be alone with a woman he isn't married or related to. When something has low probability, high risk, and is easily avoidable, you avoid it.