Crony capitalism may be cannibalizing productive capitalism in the U.S. • Hacker News Board

Re: Crony capitalism may be cannibalizing productive capitalism in the U.S.

#161

Post by KirinDave » Fri, Jun 23, 2017, 6:03 PM UTC

CalChris wrote: post #85

api wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many people have proposed variations of this as the reason civilizations collapse. They are destroyed by their success. They gain so much surplus that it completely isolates them from any kind of feedback mechanism, over time causing them to completely rot from within. Eventually the core becomes so rotten that the whole system falls apart. This can be sudden. I think an intuitive grasp of this is why so many conserv…

This is about right. Think of the F35 as welfare, a big ugly mistake isolated from consequences yet employing and profiting a professional welfare class.

Alternatively, because being a functional and happy member of modern society is predicated on full time employment (for health care, if nothing else), then there is enormous pressure to create these employments for people.

If we were to engage in universal welfare, we'd remove a false feedback signal and allow ourselves to focus on what actually creates value rather than what pays rent, food, essential health care and education.

I don't think there is much debate that not giving people access to those things is bad. But we seem strangely averse to just making them part of the core of our society.

Re: Crony capitalism may be cannibalizing productive capitalism in the U.S.

#162

Post by ntsplnkv2 » Fri, Jun 23, 2017, 6:03 PM UTC

kem wrote: post #111

kevmo wrote: post #60

Many of our regulatory bodies have been utterly captured by biggest companies that they are supposed to regulate, and they are tamping down innovation (which creates jobs), increasing prices, and decreasing quality. Both the Democrats and Republicans have been engaging too heavily in crony capitalism for decades, and this is the result. How it works: Regulations that are supposed to protect the public end up being a…

Regulatory capture, advertently or inadvertently, is one of the elephants in the healthcare room. I'm tired of all the discussion (on both sides) totally ignoring this issue.

Healthcare is a vehicle to serve another agenda. That is the problem.

It doesn't matter if insurance is private or public if the costs of healthcare are too high. I don't see why there is no compromise. It's very bad for the future of this country.

Re: Crony capitalism may be cannibalizing productive capitalism in the U.S.

#163

Post by svachalek » Fri, Jun 23, 2017, 6:04 PM UTC

pm90 wrote: post #47

jbooth wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't have to be regulated to be rent extraction. You just need to make the switching costs really high, no help needed from the legal system. Look at Oracle.

You're making good points but the nice thing about capitalism is that if a business finds switching costs too high, then another business will come up with a cheaper technology and kick the older businesses' ass. What we really need is to ensure that in these scenarios, the older business doesn't use its power and resources to stifle the upstart. That is one purpose of AntiTrust laws, I believe.

That's an effect of competition, not capitalism. As mentioned in the feature article, capitalism itself has a tendency to create monopolies and extract rents since that produces a much higher ROI than engaging in competition to produce useful goods.

Re: Crony capitalism may be cannibalizing productive capitalism in the U.S.

#164

Post by balls187 » Fri, Jun 23, 2017, 6:04 PM UTC

xiaoma wrote: post #56

balls187 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get that this is hyperbole, but: 1. There are plenty of US Government (i.e. tax payer funded) programs to help people get "normal" ideas off the ground. From grants, to loans, the money is there. It's hard to imagine someone destined for success being stopped by not being able to raise $10k. $10k in credit card debt is nothing for the average american. 2. Success breeds success. If you're rich, you may already have…

Since you seem knowledgeable about this, what is the amount of credit card debt available to the median American above what they already carry?

Above what they carry is irrelevant. American's can get themselves on average up to 5-7k of debt[1], it's reasonable assumption that if one was determined, they could get $10k in credit.

https://www.valuepenguin.com/average-credit-card-debt

Re: Crony capitalism may be cannibalizing productive capitalism in the U.S.

#165

Post by pm90 » Fri, Jun 23, 2017, 6:04 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #122

pm90 wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is unfortunately too close to the truth. One thing I would like to add though is that despite the fruits of labor accruing disproportionately to the elite, the system has managed to lift up everyone else as well, right? So the system does work, and I wonder what would happen if it was changed to be more egalitarian....

> the system has managed to lift up everyone else as well, right? By some measures, all of which fail to account for the fact that relative deprivation is a substantial source of experienced disutility.

Its true, but I'm not sure whether I would choose to be born in a Cholera ridden mid 1850's London or the Ghettos of Inner-City Houston today. We've solved some problems and now face others of course, but my question is whether the earlier problems were of a different kind...

Re: Crony capitalism may be cannibalizing productive capitalism in the U.S.

#166

Post by balls187 » Fri, Jun 23, 2017, 6:05 PM UTC

xenadu02 wrote: post #99

balls187 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get that this is hyperbole, but: 1. There are plenty of US Government (i.e. tax payer funded) programs to help people get "normal" ideas off the ground. From grants, to loans, the money is there. It's hard to imagine someone destined for success being stopped by not being able to raise $10k. $10k in credit card debt is nothing for the average american. 2. Success breeds success. If you're rich, you may already have…

> 1. There are plenty of US Government (i.e. tax payer funded) programs to help people get "normal" ideas off the ground. From grants, to loans, the money is there. It's hard to imagine someone destined for success being stopped by not being able to raise $10k. $10k in credit card debt is nothing for the average american. You've obviously never tried this. It would be a full-time job for a year to even have a shot at…

> It would be a full-time job for a year to even have a shot at these supposed grants.

How bad do you want to start a business?

How long do you think startup founders work before having something that is worthy for seed funding?

Re: Crony capitalism may be cannibalizing productive capitalism in the U.S.

#167

Post by svachalek » Fri, Jun 23, 2017, 6:06 PM UTC

bostonscott wrote: post #83

bjl wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Crony capitalism is not a misnomer, its the endgame of all capitalists. When people have the resources to buy a regulatory advantage, of course they are going to do so; that's just capitalism at its 'finest'.

It's not the endgame of all capitalists. Actual capitalists, limited in number as they are, prefer free markets (e.g. no cronyism) because they'll make more money that way over time. Opportunists are the ones who thrive when things are rigged. They can't survive on their own. But yes, many capitalists (and non-capitalists alike) "buy" regulatory advantages. Some leverage their dollars (buying) Some leverage their num…

> Actual capitalists, limited in number as they are, prefer free markets (e.g. no cronyism) because they'll make more money that way over time.

Citation needed.

Re: Crony capitalism may be cannibalizing productive capitalism in the U.S.

#168

Post by antisthenes » Fri, Jun 23, 2017, 6:08 PM UTC

bostonscott wrote: post #83

bjl wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Crony capitalism is not a misnomer, its the endgame of all capitalists. When people have the resources to buy a regulatory advantage, of course they are going to do so; that's just capitalism at its 'finest'.

It's not the endgame of all capitalists. Actual capitalists, limited in number as they are, prefer free markets (e.g. no cronyism) because they'll make more money that way over time. Opportunists are the ones who thrive when things are rigged. They can't survive on their own. But yes, many capitalists (and non-capitalists alike) "buy" regulatory advantages. Some leverage their dollars (buying) Some leverage their num…

Nope. Historically proven false multiple times.

Free markets lead to regulatory capture over time.

Re: Crony capitalism may be cannibalizing productive capitalism in the U.S.

#169

Post by balls187 » Fri, Jun 23, 2017, 6:09 PM UTC

bertjk wrote: post #80

balls187 wrote: post #24

I read the opening paragraph, them skimmed through the rest of the article looking for concrete examples of "Wrong Kind" of Entrepreneurs. I have a hard time imagining tech entreprenuers are the "wrong kind." They may disrupt by circumventing the law, but I don't buy the argument that they're not producing something of value in return.

If someone has to violate the law to produce value, then it is likely that they haven't really "produced" any value. More likely they are simply stealing from the commons.

> If someone has to violate the law to produce value, then it is likely that they haven't really "produced" any value.

Imagine you created an app that allowed Gay and Lesbian couples plan their wedding, and you operated in states that haven't legalized same-sex marriage.

Are you stealing from the commons?

Just because a law exists on the books, doesn't mean it's a just law.

Re: Crony capitalism may be cannibalizing productive capitalism in the U.S.

#170

Post by CodeWriter23 » Fri, Jun 23, 2017, 6:10 PM UTC

tryitnow wrote: post #137

Shivetya wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

taxes in the US are far more progressive than they used to be. there are however many new avenues to follow to increase wealth. those below a certain income level are more likely to get eaten up by embedded taxes, regulatory fees and government service fees. then throw in we are bombarded every day continuously to buy this,buy that, go here, do that. We get told every day of wonderful stuff available for pennies or d…

Really? Could you be more specific on how regulatory fees and government service fees are a bigger problem than massive, gaping wealth inequality and the power differentials that go along with it? And what's the solution? Deregulation? Wouldn't that just make consumers even more vulnerable to the predations of the powerful? In fact, it seems that powerful interests generally lobby for more regulation, not less, so I'…

In response to your first question, my go to answer would be the government's favorite rent seeking apparatus: parking enforcement. Parking tickets are a regressive form of taxation that disproportionately affects the poor. I'm not talking about exceeding your time at the meter. I'm more referring to Street Sweeping violations on a weekly basis, when they hardly ever actually send a street sweeper down your block.

Another example is how LA Sanitation continued to charge myself and thousands of other apartment dwellers the monthly flat rate, despite our landlord hiring a private service, and the fact that the city collected our cans and the city trucks didn't collect trash. They refused to refund my money, citing a City Council Resolution on the matter. The city was eventually sued and this policy was repealed. If I refused to pay, since DWP does the billing for Sanitation, my electrical service would have been terminated.

Don't even get me started on CA's solution to Sacramento's refusal to curtail spending by passing a $.20/gallon gasoline tax. CA residents already pay more gas tax than most other states.

And last but certainly not least, CA Senate Bill 18/2017 which thankfully was crushed by activists. This "Children's Bill of Rights" did not increase safety nor the welfare of children in general. It did however insinuate the State of California as your child's new parent, whilst mandating a new level of services to be provided by the billionaire author of the bill, Jim Steyer (Common Sense Media). Funded by your tax dollars, of course.