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Aadhaar isn’t progress – it’s dystopian and dangerous

blog.mozilla.org

161–170 of 251 posts

Re: Aadhaar isn’t progress – it’s dystopian and dangerous

#161

Is the Indian government now also doing astroturfing? Does anyone know about any serious research or reporting on it? Chinese and Russian operations are well-known and reported, but I haven't heard of Indian ones. Seeing the same, generally weak talking points, angrily defending the Indian government, advocating nationalistic points of view, and repeated over and over - it all reminds me of threads critical of China…

BJP (the current ruling part) is known to have a social media trolling unit: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/dec/27/india-bjp-part... .

Also payment startups are at the fore front of the Anti Aadhaar lobbying effort, since Aadhaar based payments + UPI essentially cut the middleman out - NO MDR anymore!

And it makes sense. Would you want a private company like ApplePay/PayPal/AliPay control payments, and be able to block merchants at will like apple does, or a public agency you can drag to court.

Re: Aadhaar isn’t progress – it’s dystopian and dangerous

#162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I said this a bit differently in another comment but I'll ask you this - would you still support Aadhaar if the party in power was not the Bjp? Remember that the party in power will inevitably change at some point but this project will remain. Would you be able to trust any party besides the Bjp with being in charge of this project? If you would, well I won't argue with you, if not you really have to think about the…

FYI : I will welcome all those scheme which dry out the bribe money from the corrupt government service officials. I will also welcome all methods which - eliminate the middleman - reduce the sense of entitlement from government officials - abolish the need of standing in queues of people to pay bribe - financially drain out all those government officials who plan their expenses based on bribe estimate not their actu…

I too support all initiatives you list but not at the risk of handing away by identity for potential abuse. You have to understand that most Aadhaar critics are not anti-national or corrupt, in fact quite the opposite they do not want to become (even more) vulnerable to the 'big players ' in the hierarchy of corruption in India.

Re: Aadhaar isn’t progress – it’s dystopian and dangerous

#163
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Aadhaar is fundamentally different than a National ID which every other country in this world has. Not the United States! Edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_national_identity_card... seems to suggest national IDs are voluntary in 15 countries, nonexistent in 9, and mandatory in 82. One thing that seems possibly significant is that six of the non-mandatory ones include the entirety of the "Anglosphere". htt…

Aadhaar has the same data that your US birth certificate has. Name/DOB/gender/Address-if-available. Unless I'm mistaken everyone in US has a Birth Certificate. EDIT IN RESPONSE TO YOUR EDIT An birth certificate is also an ID. There's no rational reason of being proud of not having a national ID, when you have mandatory birth registrations and birth certificates. If anything Aadhaar store less information than your BC…

> There's no rational reason of being proud of not having a national ID, when you have mandatory birth registrations and birth certificates.

Some of the Anglosphere's pride in not having national ID should probably be eroded by the standardization of other forms of ID and the movement toward requiring them for more things by regulation (e.g., air travel, banking, some forms of train travel, and proof of age to enter regulated venues that serve alcohol).

However, the lack of national ID should in principle make it harder for the state to routinely easily identify us in public, or to institute movement controls, or to require people to be identified for more kinds of transactions. Possibly all of these things are tending to fail over time in different ways, which may end up making the lack of national ID increasingly symbolic.

At the same time, I do think there are jurisdictions where mandatory national IDs have made it easier for both state and commercial entities to switch some kinds of transactions and interactions from anonymous by default to strongly identified by default. Since we've seen someone else in this thread argue that identifying people for air travel and mobile communications services are desirable benefits of national ID, I'll count that as a point against national ID from my point of view.

Re: Aadhaar isn’t progress – it’s dystopian and dangerous

#164
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Police forces can be deadly, too; and the alternative to them usually isn't (it's mostly "just" fraud, armed robbery, rape and slave trafficking.) But we prefer to risk authorizing some people to carry deadly weapons around—even knowing it can and does turn out badly sometimes—in order to reduce the prevalence of the things we get from lawlessness. Aadhar isn't risk-free, but if the majority of the country want it (i…

> Aadhar isn't risk-free, but if the majority of the country want it Thank you for soberly defending the program. I disagree with one of your precedents (specifically, that Indians are informed about the risks they're taking) but agree with your logic.

FWIW I mostly agree with the logic itself too, and I think it's a much better and more honest argument than failing to treat such surveillance systems as dangerous. My disagreement is on the tradeoffs.

Re: Aadhaar isn’t progress – it’s dystopian and dangerous

#165
Who has power to abuse in unique identification system (aadhaar) - individual or state? State.

Where does the state in questions stand in corruption ratings, human development index ? very low.

(Looking up in internet) Latest use of aadhar seems to be in mobile internet via Jio telecom - they've used aadhar as identification. How is this not dystopian ? with most of country relying on mobile internet alone and state knowing their entire web activity - how is not dystopian?

Going by a similar analogy - Should a US citizen use SSN to get a home-worker-robot from a private company like (Google,SpaceX) to help with all daily chores ? BIG NO

India has also been known for its infamous caste society (read prejudice) for few millenia - will unique identification help eradicate or increase the problem further ? can anybody explain which applies here and how ?

Although I am not against having an unique ID for citizens in a country. Such systems will become easy tools for few powerful. We so often get rants in HN about facebook(and others) abusing privacy (listening to audio, tracking most of our web browsing).

How is with aadhar and facts above help prevent a state or private-company or mix-of-both-them not become big brother ?

edit: removed a sentence which got repeated.

Re: Aadhaar isn’t progress – it’s dystopian and dangerous

#166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And, Godhra Train was burned by 2000 Muslims surrounding a train and burning people with nothing to escape. > Next time before mentioning Godhra and Muslims in same sentence don't forget to mention what 2000 Muslims did to unarmed people in train by locking the train compartment. None of these things matter. Lets say that 10 people committed a crime in broad daylight in front of hundreds of people, then they hid in…

You are unable to back up your claims by verifiable data source and quantifiable data points. Can you get the caste of a person by reading the Aadhar number ? Answer is No. If you or your relatives had not lost bribe money due to the Direct Benefit scheme, then I cannot understand the blatant hate of Aadhar. Otherwise, I hope that neither you nor your immediate family members were accumulating wealth by being corrupt…

> Can you get the caste of a person by reading the Aadhar number ?

Are you saying that government does not have any information associated with the Aadhar number? You're straw manning really badly. The whole argument, nearly every single person in this thread, making against you is that Aadhar is dystopian. But your argument is "But you can't figure out a person's info by just reading the Aadhar number".

Re: Aadhaar isn’t progress – it’s dystopian and dangerous

#167
post #165

Who has power to abuse in unique identification system (aadhaar) - individual or state? State. Where does the state in questions stand in corruption ratings, human development index ? very low. (Looking up in internet) Latest use of aadhar seems to be in mobile internet via Jio telecom - they've used aadhar as identification. How is this not dystopian ? with most of country relying on mobile internet alone and state…

> (Looking up in internet) Latest use of aadhar seems to be in mobile internet via Jio telecom - they've used aadhar as identification. How is this not dystopian ? with most of country relying on mobile internet alone and state knowing their entire web activity - how is not dystopian?

Aadhaar has nothing to do with you web activity. It's used as KYC - Know your Customer - for getting the JIO connection. It's optional, and as an alternative you can submit a xerox of any ID documents for your KYC. Most european countries require an ID document to get a mobile connection as well - Italy for example.

> Going by a similar analogy - Should a US citizen use SSN to get a home-woker-robot from a private company like (Google,SpaceX) to help with all daily chores ? BIG NO

More apt analogy would be that should a US citizen use SSN to to get a bank account at Citibank? BIG YES

> India has also been known for its infamous caste society (read prejudice) for few millenia - will unique identification help eradicate or increase the problem further ? can anybody explain which applies here and how ?

That has nothing to do with Aadhaar so I would ignore it.

> Where does the state in questions stand in corruption ratings, human development index ? very low.

It's also one of the freest countries in Asia according to Freedom House, and has robust institutions. It's the world's biggest democracy for 70 years now - during which western countries like Spain and Portugal were rules by dictators.

Please keep you condescending attitude to yourself. Indias are well informed to make an informed choice in this matter, and they have.

EDIT IN RESPONSE TO YOUR EDIT:

> How is with aadhar and facts above help prevent a state or private-company or mix-of-both-them not become big brother ?

Because Mister it's only used for KYC. Aadhaar system only stores a few attributes - Name/DOB/gender/address-if-available. That's data every goverment in this world keeps of its citizens. Do you understand now how you and Mozilla are fear mongering?

Re: Aadhaar isn’t progress – it’s dystopian and dangerous

#168
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Notice a fun fact, Aadhar was introduced before 2013, before the election of 2014. Not many these so called privacy and human rights activists stood up then. I realize you're probably talking about people in India in this context, not people in the U.S., but I helped write part of this anti-Aadhar post back in 2012: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2012/09/indias-gargantuan-biom... In support of your view that some cr…

Aadhar started rolling out in 2011 itself, people started enrolling out then only and started getting Aadhar card by post. Some privacy activists did stood and enquired but did not get much support or voice. After 6 years who are the people who are creating noise and running from corner to corner ? Do these people actually care about privacy? Hard to think. Have these people lost money due to direct benefit scheme? P…

> you are a privacy freak typing on a device assembled in China.

So I see a lot of tensions in this thread between views of privacy advocates in India opposing Aadhar (accused of having some other kind of agenda) and privacy advocates outside India opposing it (accused of not knowing much about India).

Although this thread has included discussions about both Indian and non-Indian opposition, the privacy community outside India is quite relevant because the original article is a (U.S.-based) Mozilla post criticizing Aadhar.

I'm a privacy advocate outside India accused of not knowing much about India, to which I can readily confess. I have unfortunately not yet had the opportunity to visit India. As I said, I don't know which party was in power when Aadhar was first developed, nor do I know which party is in power now, nor have I witnessed the situation of the rural communities often described as the biggest Aadhar beneficiaries.

I do find it sad that the notion of hypocrisy or disproportionate concern has taken on such a high profile in this thread.

Like you said, I am typing this on a device assembled in China. I've thought about the possibility that the Chinese state (in whose territory this device was shipped), the American state (through those territory this device was shipped and in whose territory its CPU was designed), or the Swedish, Dutch, German, Swiss, Italian, Portuguese, Brazilian, Singaporean, Taiwanese, British, or Chinese states, among others (through those territory I've carried this device), may have used their access to backdoor it somehow.

I find these possibilities deeply tragic. I'm very grateful that so many people around the world are working to expose, detect, and fight back against the ways in which governments may tamper with our devices. People who do that are my heroes, and I hope their community will grow and grow. If a manufacturer can show how it's better-protected its users against supply chain attacks, I will be really excited to consider its products.

Re: Aadhaar isn’t progress – it’s dystopian and dangerous

#169
post #32
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really have a pony in this race, but logically, there is a difference. There are strict government laws in place to protect SSN information, such laws do not exist (apparently) in India regarding Aadhar. I don't think the argument is (mostly) about having a national ID, but about the lack of privacy of that information. Of course biometrics are bad in another way... If one needed to, you could change an ID nu…

Social Security Number in the US pre-dates the internet and any concerns people had about privacy. People used to include it on their pre-printed personal checks along with their name and address. SSNs don't even have a checksum to detect typos, nor any convenient mechanism to issue a replacement number if one is compromised. Using the security flaws of the SSN implementation to justify security flaws in any modern i…

Back when Social Security was first being put in place, there was a lot of concern that SSN's would become a "national Identification Number", and there were laws put in place to prevent this. However, said laws were largely ignored and SSN was pretty frequently used for all kinds of non-governmental purposes. In the last decade or so, there has been a renewed concern about SSN due to identity theft, and PII or Personally Identifying Information. It's now highly discouraged for anyone to store SSN numbers, although they can be still be collected for certain things like opening bank accounts and what not to prove citizenship, as well as to report to the IRS.

IMO the IRS should not be using SSN's for identification. But i'm not sure what else they can use.

Re: Aadhaar isn’t progress – it’s dystopian and dangerous

#170
post #165

Who has power to abuse in unique identification system (aadhaar) - individual or state? State. Where does the state in questions stand in corruption ratings, human development index ? very low. (Looking up in internet) Latest use of aadhar seems to be in mobile internet via Jio telecom - they've used aadhar as identification. How is this not dystopian ? with most of country relying on mobile internet alone and state…

> (Looking up in internet) Latest use of aadhar seems to be in mobile internet via Jio telecom - they've used aadhar as identification. How is this not dystopian ? with most of country relying on mobile internet alone and state knowing their entire web activity - how is not dystopian? Aadhaar has nothing to do with you web activity. It's used as KYC - Know your Customer - for getting the JIO connection. It's optional…

>> It's used as KYC - Know your Customer - for getting the JIO connection

Ok, I am Jio SIM company. So I have your aadhar KYC or a xerox of your aadhar card as well. How as a citizen, can you trust me (a private company) to not pass your web activity to state. eg: say you are an NGO using JIO sim and is working for getting rid of big corruption in state. How will you ensure my company and state will not track your every web activity ? It all sounds familiar when you know privacy concerns of Chinese humanitarians - read great firewall of internet.

>> It's the world's biggest democracy for 70 years now.

How does being biggest in numbers help in democracy ? Democracy is pretty old my friend. 70 years is again a very small age in democracy.

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