China's $1T Plan to Shake Up the Economic Order • Hacker News Board

Re: China's $1T Plan to Shake Up the Economic Order

#161

Post by throwaway27373 » Sun, May 14, 2017, 3:45 AM UTC

propman wrote: post #100

thablackbull wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you're witnessing is manufactured consent[1]. There is no need for the crude methods of propaganda here because it's not even necessary. Compare that with China; people there are fully conscious of government propaganda. From the SMH article, they expected the west to be a land of freedom and democratization of ideas, but what they end up finding is that it more or less is the same thing. > [2] "A lot of them ar…

But in the West the media is not state run. The Chinese government decides what to run and clearly that is propaganda. In America the media is controlled by 2 political parties and they are either pro or anti government. The media in the West can run any content they wish and it is up to the free market to determine if they can survive. You can listen to whatever viewpoint or angle. CNN, Fox, Huffpo, Brietbart everyo…

China wields formal control where in the US this is achieves via peer pressure and social manipulation/control. Anytime something shocking is revealed reporters end up losing thier jobs, sometimes be suicided or at worst end up like Assange.

Re: China's $1T Plan to Shake Up the Economic Order

#162

Post by bairrd » Sun, May 14, 2017, 3:48 AM UTC

malandrew wrote: post #111

marcell wrote: post #77

I'm struck by China's ability to attempt large, ambitious projects like this, compared to America's inability to do, well, anything really. The largest infrastructure project I'm aware of in the USA is California's High Speed Rail (~$60B+), was approved a decade ago and is barely making any progress. The federal government is in complete gridlock. The most ambitious legislation passed in the last decade, the ACA, cau…

Blame the fragmenting US population identity-wise, which has been accelerated by rhetoric on the left. Fewer and fewer people identify as an "American" with each passing year meaning that it is harder and harder to push policies that benefit "Americans". I lived in China for 1.5 years in 2005 to 2006 and culturally, once you pull back the facade of language and food, it wasn't terribly different than how America felt…

Wouldn't the more right wing desire to slash funding for government handouts be a more likely cause of stalled programs? Neoliberalism's weird incestuous desire to have 20 different planning committees write papers on the viability of public works makes things take forever, but also, constant arbitrary slashing of budgets every 4 to 8 years by those on the right puts a bullet in the head of these projects. Blaming the left misses at least 50% of the problem. Also, the left is far more into the concept of redistribution of wealth through public works, even if the centrist democrats filter that through moronic means-testing and bloated committees. Framing this as some lack-of-patriotism issue is completely missing the issues both sides cause in this situation, that would be solved by a party to the left of the useless neoliberal democrats.

Re: China's $1T Plan to Shake Up the Economic Order

#163

Post by cinquemb » Sun, May 14, 2017, 3:50 AM UTC

awkwardtortoise wrote: post #136

Kholo wrote: post #11

I found this talk with Niall Ferguson and Samantha Power pretty fascinating about the US - China power balance changing. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8yghOc-lMIM Just one mindblowing fact from the talk - China has poured more concrete in the last two years than the US in the last hundred.

China has 1.1 billion more people than the US. They have bet big on megalopolis ( the bejing centered, shanghai centered and the chonging centered ). Combined, these 3 megalopolis will have a population larger than the US. China has 110 cities with 1 million people. The US has 10. And china is at 55% urbanization while the US is 80%+ urban so china still has hundreds of millions of people to urbanize. Also, some econ…

The thing is, I don't think this will end well for the US as long as its politically feasible to maintain the huge "investment" (political/economic) in military infrastructure that will provide nothing that will look like returns compared to a huge economic push would.

I'd say China benefits the longer the US is "forced" to spend what amounts a little more than half of this infrastructure project every year.

At best, I think the military expenditures the US puts out is good for protecting economic assets for all interested parties in/through volatility high areas, but it's not exactly something that all parties contribute to maintaining in proportion of the benefits they receive from it.

I don't really know what war in the 21st century will look like (I have some ideas), but so far it doesn't seem like its benefiting many people outside of those who get the contracts to enable such war making. So it seems like in stalemate that's present now, and arguably has been in place since ww2, it seems like non-state actors have more to gain.

Re: China's $1T Plan to Shake Up the Economic Order

#164

Post by throwaway27373 » Sun, May 14, 2017, 3:50 AM UTC

irishcoffee wrote: post #152

jon_richards wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fun fact I learned recently: the US army provides a ton of props and consulting for free if they approve of the way a movie will portray them.

Fun "fact" as well: they won't arrest you, or worse, if they don't like it.

Have you heard of the 'patriot act'

Re: China's $1T Plan to Shake Up the Economic Order

#165

Post by [deleted] » Sun, May 14, 2017, 4:00 AM UTC

throwaway053 wrote: post #151

dominotw wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China doesn't have to deal with hostile entities like Iran and Wahabi arabs. I bet Chinese are proud to be Chinese, I am a naturalised US citizen and being proud of being American is seen as racist.

Lol most of the Chinese is under the Chinese government brainwash via state propaganda and censored internet. You obviously don't know anyone who is from Hong Kong. Ask them how they feel about being Chinese. They will spit in your face

[deleted]

Re: China's $1T Plan to Shake Up the Economic Order

#166

Post by jackvalentine » Sun, May 14, 2017, 4:27 AM UTC

BurningFrog wrote: post #67

holydude wrote: post #31

The scary part is china's protectionism. Small nations and businesses have so little possibilities to operate in china without getting robbed of IP or being outcompeted by state supported domestic ventures. I fear the future of China being stronger superpower than the USA.

Protectionism has never made a country strong.

Pretty much every "Introduction to Economics" class will feature the Infant Industry Argument in its syllabus. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infant_industry_argument)

Re: China's $1T Plan to Shake Up the Economic Order

#167

Post by afpx » Sun, May 14, 2017, 4:47 AM UTC

njarboe wrote: post #27

“Pursuing protectionism is just like locking oneself in a dark room,” Mr. Xi told business leaders at the World Economic Forum in January. I might agree with Mr. Xi, but the Great Firewall of China is a higher wall of protectionism than anything the West has against the Chinese. Forcing foreign companies to partner with Chinese companies and then transfer all of their closely held technologies and industrial processe…

It's going to be an interesting test. No government that I know of was able to both squelch information while also winning technologically and economically.

But, I'm not sure if any of those previous governments paid their scientists and engineers well. So, maybe China can win by just paying everyone off.

Re: China's $1T Plan to Shake Up the Economic Order

#168

Post by petre » Sun, May 14, 2017, 5:33 AM UTC

easilyBored wrote: post #119

njarboe wrote: post #27

“Pursuing protectionism is just like locking oneself in a dark room,” Mr. Xi told business leaders at the World Economic Forum in January. I might agree with Mr. Xi, but the Great Firewall of China is a higher wall of protectionism than anything the West has against the Chinese. Forcing foreign companies to partner with Chinese companies and then transfer all of their closely held technologies and industrial processe…

None of that matters. China is spending hundreds of billions to "support" several countries. In reality to own those countries and to bring business back to China. In corrupt countries about 10-20% of the total is going to the elite (cost of doing business) and they'll never forget that China made it possible. If they do, China will undoubtedly remind them. Also, whatever the cost, China is not spending that much any…

And they made this possible by co-opting authocrats or wannabe authocrats like Vladimir Putin and Viktor Orban, along with other corrupt leaders. I just wonder if they play to build their silk road railway through Ukraine. The Chinese bought an area bigger than Belgium in this country which are using for agriculture.

Re: China's $1T Plan to Shake Up the Economic Order

#169

Post by taobility » Sun, May 14, 2017, 6:19 AM UTC

throwaway053 wrote: post #89

holydude wrote: post #31

The scary part is china's protectionism. Small nations and businesses have so little possibilities to operate in china without getting robbed of IP or being outcompeted by state supported domestic ventures. I fear the future of China being stronger superpower than the USA.

pretty sure the world doesn't want an authoritarian dictatorship like China, who acts like a retarded bully with Taiwan and Dali Lama, who oppresses its own people in hong kong and xinjiang, who is belligerent with most of its neighbors like Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Vietnam, India.

so the world should only allow USA bully other countries and regions?

Re: China's $1T Plan to Shake Up the Economic Order

#170

Post by Inconel » Sun, May 14, 2017, 6:31 AM UTC

throwaway27373 wrote: post #164

irishcoffee wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fun "fact" as well: they won't arrest you, or worse, if they don't like it.

Have you heard of the 'patriot act'

Not the poster you're replying to but I have. I can't say that I'm fond of it.

I've never heard it being used against a movie director for portraying the US military unfavorably though.