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Uber faces criminal probe over software used to evade authorities

reuters.com

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Re: Uber faces criminal probe over software used to evade authorities

#161

Post by xixi77 »

pvg wrote: post #65
xixi77 wrote: post #45

What exactly part of this is criminal? I mean, isn't any business free to discriminate and refuse service to anyone they like (for example government employees, hackers, or Democrats), as long as they are not in one of several protected categories like sex/race/national origin/etc.? Or is this violating consumer privacy laws when CC info is used this way?

Not letting the health inspector in your restaurant is not exercising your right to refuse service.

Of course not; surely it is a condition of your food service license to allow inspectors on premises, so you'll lose it if you don't let them in (I doubt you'll get charged with a federal crime for it though). I don't see much in common with the Uber situation though.

Re: Uber faces criminal probe over software used to evade authorities

#162

Post by gotothedoctor »

Seems like a lot of people are confused/have questions about why Uber is being criminally investigated by the Department of Justice.*

Here's why:

1. Uber is subject to the laws in the jurisdictions in which it operates. Evading authorities is textbook obstruction of justice. Not only did Uber build software that they used to evade authorities & break local laws in multiple states and countries, but they profited from it (which has a variety of other RICO implications.)

2. Sure, corporations are people too, but, nonetheless, only people engage in civil disobedience. Related, for courts, a company that profits from violating of local laws is not a protester or freedom fighter battling injustice, it is criminal enterprise.

3. Charging Uber under RICO would by no means be unusual or a stretch; this is a quite run of the mill application of these laws. (eg see Preet Bharara's RICO prosecutions: https://www.google.com/search?q=preet+bharara+rico+prosectio... )

4. This is unquestionably a federal matter, within the DOJ's jurisdiction. Uber operates across state lines--and used Greyball in multiple jurisdictions. That said, Uber could & likely will face criminal investigation in other jurisdictions.

5. Finally, this is definitely not Trump's revenge on Travis. Not only does it simply not work that way--USAs are independent & it'd be beyond illegal, but this specific USA was appointed by Obama. (There were two Trump didn't fire; USA Stretch is one of them)

(*And, yes, I am a lawyer. And, many years ago, I worked at the Department of Justice)

Re: Uber faces criminal probe over software used to evade authorities

#163

Post by [deleted] »

nostromo wrote: post #44

I'm not a fan of Uber, but it seems like it's their right to decide who is allowed to use their service. (Baring protected classes, of course.) If a regulator started creating fake user accounts in order to scrape Uber's data, I don't see why Uber can't put a stop to that. And if a legislator is a vocal critic of Uber, I don't see why Uber should be forced to allow them to use their service.

[deleted]

Re: Uber faces criminal probe over software used to evade authorities

#164

Post by [deleted] »

MichaelGG wrote: post #153
Mtinie wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So if supported allegations of rampant corporate sexism and sexual harassment[1][2], legally suspect actions during corporate events[3], the "Greyball" toolkit[4], departure of at least seven high-level executives in recent months[5], a tone-deaf and self-aggravating CEO[6], financial analysts pointing out the massive scope of investor subsidies and lack of profit opportunities[7], and questionable classifications of…

For me, it was the redesign. Travis talking about how picking a corporate colour scheme was a "process of self discovery" was just too much SV nonsense. Atoms and Bits indeed. Also didn't help they ran a big article about leaving Postgres because they couldn't assume their engineers understand DB transactions. Their example, IIRC, was a dev sending an email inside of a DB transaction​ and not knowing this would consu…

[deleted]

Re: Uber faces criminal probe over software used to evade authorities

#165

Post by [deleted] »

sqeaky wrote: post #151
nebabyte wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wrong. There is no "should be vs. would be" dance here. It's spelled out in black and white in your employee agreement.

Not all people, not even all programmers, sign specific agreements. I have taken programming jobs only signing tax documents. EDIT - I also wouldn't expect something as flimsy as a piece of paper to actually protect me my the likes of Steve Kalanick. He seems like the type to screw anyone over if he can gain from it. If I were those programmers I would get a laywer no matter what any agreement said. For the future, p…

[deleted]

Re: Uber faces criminal probe over software used to evade authorities

#166

Post by sfilargi »

dangero wrote: post #70
pvg wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody was forcing Uber to do anything. They were trying to deny agents of public regulatory bodies the ability to assess them. That isn't any kind of 'right'.

"right" is a moral judgement. It depends on whether you see this as civil disobedience. It may be "right" and also illegal at the same time.

I may be wrong but I don't think you can label something as "civil disobedience" when it is done by a corporation or when it is done for profit.

Re: Uber faces criminal probe over software used to evade authorities

#167

Post by defen »

walrus01 wrote: post #123
defen wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know, I remember posting on this site years ago that the Uber CEO was a terrible person (Based on a few interactions I had with him back when UberCab had about 5 employees) and being told by some prominent people that I was wrong. This was back when YC was talking about how "niceness" was a key quality in successful founders. Feels good to have my instincts vindicated.

Uber is the prototypical example of what happens when you give a pack of fratbros too much VC money. The exact same thing happened in the late-1990s dotcom boom (And bust, 2000-2001), people have not learned their lesson. beenz flooz webvan pets.com (albeit, their business model has been vindicated by amazon many years later)

I think it was roughly 3 years ago that some people were saying Uber would be the first trillion dollar company...

Re: Uber faces criminal probe over software used to evade authorities

#168

Post by wutbrodo »

askafriend wrote: post #47
stepitup wrote: post #46

What's really strange is that I bet a good percente of the people reading this comment will know exactly what I mean when I refer to a: "Startup that employs mafia tactics and forces businesses to pay a protection fee, or actively fucks them up and attempts to hurt them." Why aren't the authorities going over the ACTUAL, honest-to-god mafia startup? Sorry, I realize it's off topic here, but my first thought when I re…

Can't wait until Nextdoor replaces Yelp. It's only a matter of time.

I dunno, I use both and most of the time I need restaurant reviews it isn't in my neighborhood.

That being said, I rarely bother opening yelp since I'm usually on Google maps in the first place and in my area they have plenty of reviews.

Re: Uber faces criminal probe over software used to evade authorities

#169

Post by inetknght »

nradov wrote: post #157
MichaelGG wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if I think investigators are following me, so I get a friend to drive my car around all day, "wasting" their time. Am I now guilty of a crime? Seems like Uber did the same kinda thing.

If the prosecutor is able to prove intent and you had committed some other crime as well then yes, you and your friend could potentially both be convicted of conspiracy to obstruct justice. This isn't some kind of game; judges don't look favorably on defendants playing tricks.

Note to self: if I find a car following me, I should immediately turn myself in to authorities or face "repercussions".

Re: Uber faces criminal probe over software used to evade authorities

#170

Post by obstinate »

gotothedoctor wrote: post #162

Seems like a lot of people are confused/have questions about why Uber is being criminally investigated by the Department of Justice.* Here's why: 1. Uber is subject to the laws in the jurisdictions in which it operates. Evading authorities is textbook obstruction of justice. Not only did Uber build software that they used to evade authorities & break local laws in multiple states and countries, but they profited from…

> 2. Sure, corporations are people too, but, nonetheless, only people engage in civil disobedience. Related, for courts, a company that profits from violating of local laws is not a protester or freedom fighter battling injustice, it is criminal enterprise.

This point seems out of place to me. To my understanding as a lay person, the law does not distinguish between a crime committed as civil disobedience and the same crime otherwise. Neither corporations nor private citizens can use a defense like, "it was civil disobedience," to avoid criminal liability. This has nothing to do with corporations being people or not. Could you please bring your lawyerly knowledge to bear and correct whatever deficiencies in understanding I have here?

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