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A Closer Look at North Korea’s Ullim Tablet

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Re: A Closer Look at North Korea’s Ullim Tablet

#161

Post by fit2rule »

Fraterkes wrote: post #159
fit2rule wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you really maintain such ignorance in the face of the political reality, that governments gain no powers from the ether but rather - directly - from the support of their civilian populations? Are you stupid, or just young and haven't gotten to that part in civics lessons yet?

Im 62 and have worked in sociology and politocology for 28 years. You're out of your depth.

Perhaps in your weathered age you've heard of and maybe even read the Declaration of Independence (in the case of the USA)?

"According to the Declaration of Independence, the government gets its power to govern from the people that it governs. As the Declaration says, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed."

Re: A Closer Look at North Korea’s Ullim Tablet

#162

Post by dang »

fit2rule wrote: post #135
Fraterkes wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can you even say that when you are replying to a comment talking about totalitarian regimes like nazi germany? This is one of those horrible "im more cartoonishly pessimistic ergo realistic than you" internet ideas.

Can you really maintain such ignorance in the face of the political reality, that governments gain no powers from the ether but rather - directly - from the support of their civilian populations? Are you stupid, or just young and haven't gotten to that part in civics lessons yet?

> Are you stupid, or just young and haven't gotten to that part in civics lessons yet

First, this is a bannable offense on Hacker News. Please don't do it again.

Second, please stop posting unsubstantive comments on inflammatory subjects. We don't want those here.

Re: A Closer Look at North Korea’s Ullim Tablet

#164

Post by dang »

cyphar wrote: post #78
averagewall wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But what if they hadn't? Japan was invading most of Asia with mass killings along the lines of ISIS and the Nazis. Are you saying ISIS should also be left alone and America not try to stop them? Japanese civilians at the time weren't really innocent. The whole country was working for the war effort, mainly to kill other Asian people.

> Are you saying ISIS should also be left alone and America not try to stop them? As someone who isn't from America (and actually was born in a country which was subsequently bombed by America during peace time) I've never understood this idea that America is somehow justified in the belief that they are the moral arbiters of the world. Who put you in charge? If the answer involves "we have a big military" it's inter…

On HN, please don't react by going into a rage when someone else says a terrible thing. It does no good and only pulls us further into a downward spiral.

Re: A Closer Look at North Korea’s Ullim Tablet

#165

Post by mmjaa »

dang wrote: post #162
fit2rule wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you really maintain such ignorance in the face of the political reality, that governments gain no powers from the ether but rather - directly - from the support of their civilian populations? Are you stupid, or just young and haven't gotten to that part in civics lessons yet?

> Are you stupid, or just young and haven't gotten to that part in civics lessons yet First, this is a bannable offense on Hacker News. Please don't do it again. Second, please stop posting unsubstantive comments on inflammatory subjects. We don't want those here.

Whats unsubstantive about their point of view that the people are responsible for their governments?

This is a widely accepted truth, throughout history and international law - so while I do agree that the poster you're warning is a bit rude, I don't agree that their position is unsubstantive, one bit. I can understand their exasperation at the many claims that "governments can just get away with whatever they want to do because the people are powerless anyway."

There are many in the HN crowd who would like to see civilisation improve itself for the better - failing to take responsibility for ones government and its crimes against humanity is not going to produce that result. I would urge you to reduce your comment to pointing out the posters' rudeness - and remove your tacit censorship of their, very valid, point.

Re: A Closer Look at North Korea’s Ullim Tablet

#166

Post by krapp »

quirkafleeg wrote: post #156
krapp wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I may be wrong, but I believe the Japanese wanted the Emperor to remain in place and retain his power - the US was merely willing to not kill him as long as he remained a figurehead and publicly renounced any claims to authority.

Whatever may have eventually been negotiated, and perhaps nothing would ever have been agreed, it disproves the myth (used to justify the atom bombs) that only being nuked forced them to consider surrender.

The recording of the Emperor's surrender had to be sneaked out to NHK studios past a military coup in progress, so certainly not everyone was convinced.

Personally, I tend to believe that the nukes, the potential cost of defending against an invasion of the mainland by the US, and Russia's invasion made surrender look like the obvious choice, but remember that the initial plan for Pearl Harbor assumed a negotiated surrender with the US which, Japan hoped, would let them keep certain territories necessary to maintain supply lines for their colonial wars, which was what they really cared about.

Fanatical resistance by the military, both due to their own racist ideals and out of the fear for self-preservation (the Japanese people, the Western world and the rest of Asia basically hated Japan's government by the end,) drew the war and the surrender out longer than it needed to be.

Although, I also believe the main reason the US dropped the atomic bombs is that we had them, and therefore needed to justify the expense of making them by using them. It's likely that, without Japan's surrender, the US would have used nuclear weapons and invaded Japan at the same time.

Re: A Closer Look at North Korea’s Ullim Tablet

#167

Post by [deleted] »

quirkafleeg wrote: post #157
krapp wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The point is Japan's militarism combined with their utter over-the-top brutality and expansionist agenda. Everything Japan learned about Imperialism it learned from the West, though. The Empire of Japan may have been brutal, but the Allies were hardly angels in comparison, or lacking in their own expansionist ideals.

> the Allies were hardly angels in comparison, or lacking in their own expansionist ideals Well quite. How was Japan able to attack "the USA" (itself established by over-the-top brutality and expansionism) in the first place? Because the US had earlier overthrown, occupied, suppressed and militarised territories that are actually closer to Tokyo than Washington DC. How dare some Asian country think it could colonise…

[deleted]

Re: A Closer Look at North Korea’s Ullim Tablet

#168

Post by PerfectDlite »

quirkafleeg wrote: post #156
krapp wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I may be wrong, but I believe the Japanese wanted the Emperor to remain in place and retain his power - the US was merely willing to not kill him as long as he remained a figurehead and publicly renounced any claims to authority.

Whatever may have eventually been negotiated, and perhaps nothing would ever have been agreed, it disproves the myth (used to justify the atom bombs) that only being nuked forced them to consider surrender.

Ю it disproves the myth (used to justify the atom bombs) that only being nuked forced them to consider surrender.

How is this a myth if nukes were mentioned in emperor's address as a reason to surrender?

Re: A Closer Look at North Korea’s Ullim Tablet

#169

Post by dang »

mmjaa wrote: post #165
dang wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are you stupid, or just young and haven't gotten to that part in civics lessons yet First, this is a bannable offense on Hacker News. Please don't do it again. Second, please stop posting unsubstantive comments on inflammatory subjects. We don't want those here.

Whats unsubstantive about their point of view that the people are responsible for their governments? This is a widely accepted truth, throughout history and international law - so while I do agree that the poster you're warning is a bit rude, I don't agree that their position is unsubstantive, one bit. I can understand their exasperation at the many claims that "governments can just get away with whatever they want t…

On HN that point is unsubstantive because it's generic. We've learned from long experience that generic ideological discussions go nowhere interesting. Worse, users compensate for the inability to say anything new or interesting by fulminating, which leads to rants, incivility, and flamewars. That's how you get to arguments that population X deserved atrocity Y in one or two hops, and then outraged responses and outraged responses to outraged responses.

It's quite a reliable effect, which is why we're so clear about asking people not to do it.

Re: A Closer Look at North Korea’s Ullim Tablet

#170

Post by quirkafleeg »

PerfectDlite wrote: post #168
quirkafleeg wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whatever may have eventually been negotiated, and perhaps nothing would ever have been agreed, it disproves the myth (used to justify the atom bombs) that only being nuked forced them to consider surrender.

Ю it disproves the myth (used to justify the atom bombs) that only being nuked forced them to consider surrender. How is this a myth if nukes were mentioned in emperor's address as a reason to surrender?

I'm not sure what you're having trouble understanding here:

Because, as I've said, at least twice, they were already considering surrender even before the atomic bombs were dropped.

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