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Drupal Confessions – An Open Letter

drupalconfessions.org

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Re: Drupal Confessions – An Open Letter

#161

Post by dsr_ »

Pxtl wrote: post #129
maxlybbert wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That said, there's a huge gap between a religion a person is imparted with as a child, and philosophy they chose as an adult and have jumped into with both feet. Searching out which people have chosen a philosophy as an adult is how witch hunts start and are justified. I've heard complaints about McCarthyism and the Red Scare over the years, and I thought the moral was "witch hunts are bad." However, it looks clear…

Leftist beliefs aren't "half the population is my lesser ". Seriously, would you make excuses like this for a pro-ISIS muslim? A white nationalist? A violent anarchist? An antisemitic holocaust denier? Believing that one person is less human than the other by the attributes of their birth is not a philosophical discussion like capitalism vs communism. If witches are actually doing damage , then by all means hunt them…

AFAIK, a whole bunch of people here are missing the point: the Gorean stuff is primarily a consensual sexual fantasy, not a 24/7 philosophy. It doesn't say "this is the right way to live life for everyone", it says "we like this system for our personal lives and weekends and vacations".

ISIS? Nazis? They want to destroy the world and make it over in their own image, not be left alone in quiet enjoyment of their kinks. Different things entirely.

Re: Drupal Confessions – An Open Letter

#162

Post by oneeyedpigeon »

stillhere wrote: post #156
oneeyedpigeon wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Totally agree. I'm fed up of the argument that goes "if you preach tolerance, you must be tolerant of intolerance", for my own understanding of tolerance. Yes, you shouldn't commit a violent act against someone because they are intolerant. No, you shouldn't have to accept their intolerance unreservedly. I also have an issue with the part of the statement that reads along the lines of "we are against discrimination ba…

Who decides what is intolerant? Free speech becomes more limited over time as the definition changes to anything which hurts someones feelings for example. Or, in this case, ascribes to BDSM and fantasy lifestyle. You are the thought police.

> You are the thought police.

Not at all. Anyone is totally free to believe whatever they like, I'm not suggesting making certain beliefs illegal. What I'm saying is that, if i run an open-source project, i should be free to work with whoever i want, based on their beliefs. Not based on the person they were when they born, but the person they have chosen to be. If that person happens to be a white-supremacist or advocates euthenising the disabled or promotes paedophilia, i will probably choose to not work with them, and i think i should have that right.

Re: Drupal Confessions – An Open Letter

#163

Post by oneeyedpigeon »

nebabyte wrote: post #135
oneeyedpigeon wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Totally agree. I'm fed up of the argument that goes "if you preach tolerance, you must be tolerant of intolerance", for my own understanding of tolerance. Yes, you shouldn't commit a violent act against someone because they are intolerant. No, you shouldn't have to accept their intolerance unreservedly. I also have an issue with the part of the statement that reads along the lines of "we are against discrimination ba…

So then how do you deal with people with such beliefs in your society? Do you shun them, throw slurs at them? What happens when one moves in to be your next-door neighbor? Do you try moving to places without them? Intolerance of beliefs is incompatible with society, and society has shown no signs of changing. How would your solution address that? Indoctrination? Building an ideological "wall"? Killing those who do no…

> So then how do you deal with people with such beliefs in your society

Challenge those beliefs. I believe i shouldn't be forced to tolerate them, though.

Re: Drupal Confessions – An Open Letter

#164

Post by jacquesm »

na85 wrote: post #158
jacquesm wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a practice that is as old as Michelangelo.

No comparison can be made between Marvel Comics, and Michelangelo.

If Michelangelo were alive today chances are that he would be employed by some game studio instead of by the pope.

Re: Drupal Confessions – An Open Letter

#165

Post by maxlybbert »

Pxtl wrote: post #129
maxlybbert wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That said, there's a huge gap between a religion a person is imparted with as a child, and philosophy they chose as an adult and have jumped into with both feet. Searching out which people have chosen a philosophy as an adult is how witch hunts start and are justified. I've heard complaints about McCarthyism and the Red Scare over the years, and I thought the moral was "witch hunts are bad." However, it looks clear…

Leftist beliefs aren't "half the population is my lesser ". Seriously, would you make excuses like this for a pro-ISIS muslim? A white nationalist? A violent anarchist? An antisemitic holocaust denier? Believing that one person is less human than the other by the attributes of their birth is not a philosophical discussion like capitalism vs communism. If witches are actually doing damage , then by all means hunt them…

> If witches are actually doing damage, then by all means hunt them.

Thank you for confirming my point: there are people who believe McCarthy was wrong only because he picked the wrong targets. If he had picked other targets, the resulting witch hunts would have been acceptable.

Re: Drupal Confessions – An Open Letter

#166

Post by stillkicking »

minsight wrote: post #19
rsyring wrote: post #15

Make no mistake, inclusion and diversity at all costs is the new "religious" standard. Your personal beliefs do not matter. You will conform or you will suffer. (Vote down, that's fine, but it's still true.)

I'm not too sure that diversity or inclusion has a net cost.

Diversity and inclusion have a cost of having to deal with ongoing disagreement and friction that comes from coexistence.

Diversity(tm) and Inclusion(tm) have a cost of inviting Diversity Experts to tell you why you cannot do any of this on your own and why you need to pay them for it, even though none of their materials or solutions have been peer-reviewed and the readily observable effect is that they make everyone miserable.

One is how communities work, the other is how protection rackets work.

Re: Drupal Confessions – An Open Letter

#167

Post by coldpie »

Turing_Machine wrote: post #160
coldpie wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you sure it wasn't public? Those kinds of donation rolls often are. In either case, I do think it is reasonable to reject a CEO who is actively attempting to harm their own employees through government enforcement of personal religious beliefs. Especially for an altruistic company like Mozilla.

Given that Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton were also opposed to gay marriage at that time, would you agree that that they should also have been disqualified? If not, why not?

I don't think it's an interesting comparison, given one is a choice between two "lesser evils" and elected by three hundred million citizens VS the other being a leader of a private company appointed by a board from a pool of presumably many (or at least several) valid candidates. Totally different scenarios.

But yes, it was a big black mark against them and they, too, received lots of public pressure to change their public policy on the matter. And eventually, they did. Eich refused to even say he wouldn't make such a donation again, much less apologize for the harm he caused.

Re: Drupal Confessions – An Open Letter

#168

Post by therpe1 »

nebabyte wrote: post #135
oneeyedpigeon wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Totally agree. I'm fed up of the argument that goes "if you preach tolerance, you must be tolerant of intolerance", for my own understanding of tolerance. Yes, you shouldn't commit a violent act against someone because they are intolerant. No, you shouldn't have to accept their intolerance unreservedly. I also have an issue with the part of the statement that reads along the lines of "we are against discrimination ba…

So then how do you deal with people with such beliefs in your society? Do you shun them, throw slurs at them? What happens when one moves in to be your next-door neighbor? Do you try moving to places without them? Intolerance of beliefs is incompatible with society, and society has shown no signs of changing. How would your solution address that? Indoctrination? Building an ideological "wall"? Killing those who do no…

> So then how do you deal with people with such beliefs in your society? Do you shun them, throw slurs at them? What happens when one moves in to be your next-door neighbor? Do you try moving to places without them?

Pretty much all of the above.

Americans get confused about the qualities of different "spaces." It's like the US is all one big "public space" except for private land where you can murder intruders with impunity.

In reality, different spaces demand different politics. Public spaces are in fact very special -- by definition, everybody must be accepted as long as they're not breaking the law. Try to eject somebody from a public space for their beliefs and it's you, not them, who will end up in jail. See the Trump protestors.

Open-source projects aren't like that. They're essentially private associations that, in reality, receive zero public support and they don't even pay most of their members. It's literally a collection of volunteers and amateurs. And here the members absolutely do possess the right to eject anybody for any reason. It's not "fair" but fairness is not a concept that applies to such spaces.

Re: Drupal Confessions – An Open Letter

#169

Post by stillkicking »

jacquesm wrote: post #9

> We know that you have no desire for more press coverage, Dries. The last thing you want is to prolong the media parade that has drawn so much attention to the problems with Drupal governance. That must be why they chose to do this in public rather than in a private letter. As much as I agree with the contents of the letter I reject the way in which it was delivered, it is essentially blackmail. If you don't do 'x'…

Propriety is a poor excuse to let others control the conversation. From what I've seen, Dries and the Drupal Association have not invited good faith dialogue, quite the opposite. He's edited his statements silently and has subtly shifted his position (first a conflict about values, then about reported behavior). Comments remain moderated and reasonable ones have not been allowed through when they contradict the party line [1]. Many questions that were raised have been handwaved away or ignored.

Using PR-speak to sound reconciliatory while doing the opposite is a game two can play at. It may not be nice either, but it's better than trying to be reasonable against someone arguing in bad faith. That's a recipe for frog boiling and being a pushover. The idea isn't to endlessly escalate, it's to ensure both sides now have something to gain by cooperating and to lose by defecting.

[1] https://twitter.com/stefan_arrr/status/851795109716922370

Re: Drupal Confessions – An Open Letter

#170

Post by Pxtl »

dsr_ wrote: post #161
Pxtl wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Leftist beliefs aren't "half the population is my lesser ". Seriously, would you make excuses like this for a pro-ISIS muslim? A white nationalist? A violent anarchist? An antisemitic holocaust denier? Believing that one person is less human than the other by the attributes of their birth is not a philosophical discussion like capitalism vs communism. If witches are actually doing damage , then by all means hunt them…

AFAIK, a whole bunch of people here are missing the point: the Gorean stuff is primarily a consensual sexual fantasy, not a 24/7 philosophy. It doesn't say "this is the right way to live life for everyone", it says "we like this system for our personal lives and weekends and vacations". ISIS? Nazis? They want to destroy the world and make it over in their own image, not be left alone in quiet enjoyment of their kinks…

... ouch. That really would've been nice to see in the letter. Having a pervy philosophy during kinky sex with consenting adults is a very different thing from believing women are inherently inferior.
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