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Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say

theatlantic.com

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Re: Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say

#161

Post by sp332 »

return0 wrote: post #38

If you give people a big wall and free spray paint, of course they 'll fill it with dicks. Unlike real life, there is nobody to paint over them. Trolling is a natural part of the internet, its the price for having relative freedom, i dont have a problem with it. If that puts off people who don't have the capacity to tune it out, all the better.

That's not true of course. Most graffiti, murals etc are not of dicks. And if you have a community bulletin board that gets spray-painted with dicks, someone is going to possibly get fined or jailed.

Re: Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say

#162

Post by BeetleB »

Chathamization wrote: post #123

I would be interested in seeing more places try posting limits. It's easy for someone to shoot off hundreds of thoughtless messages, but it takes time and effort to make a single thoughtful post. A minority trying to do the former is going to inundate those doing the latter. And for those (probably most of us) who do a bit of both, it's likely that our less thoughtful and more rapid fire output is going to dwarf our…

>I would be interested in seeing more places try posting limits.

This was proposed years ago on Reddit: Limit # of votes/posts per user per day.

Never implemented...

Re: Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say

#163

Post by wott »

syphilis2 wrote: post #43

I don't like the loose language used in this article and others that uses "trolling" as a catch-all for online harassment, violence, privacy violations, and more. It's misleading and gets people riled up as they talk past each other. Conflating 'baiting someone into looking stupid online' with 'sending threats to their family members' muddles the conversation. Worse, it erodes the meaning of the term. I'd call it cul…

Unfortunately (because I agree with you), that's the common meaning of the word nowadays. I guess we have to deal with it, and speak of oldschool troll for the original meaning from now on.

Re: Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say

#164

Post by BeetleB »

thinkmilitant wrote: post #5
alexkavon wrote: post #2

Trolls were always winning the internet. From "RTFM" attitudes to anonymous user accounts. It's a troll playground. Don't get me wrong the internet was built to be/can be an incredible tool, but let's not misconstrue this is a new trend. EDIT: I find the issue with the candor on the internet is lack of context 90% of the time.

I agree. It seems to me that the biggest difference is the extent to which the average internet user gets his content from other internet users (reddit, facebook, twitter, etc) instead of designated content creators with reputations to uphold.

>It seems to me that the biggest difference is the extent to which the average internet user gets his content from other internet users (reddit, facebook, twitter, etc) instead of designated content creators with reputations to uphold.

This is as old as humanity, and has always been the case for the majority. See the chapter "Social Proof" in the book "Influence":

https://www.amazon.com/Influence-Psychology-Persuasion-Rober...

Re: Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say

#165

Post by wvenable »

kordless wrote: post #32
wvenable wrote: post #13

The real problem is that bytes are effectively free. Here I am, using up your bytes right now. Using up the bytes on Hacker news. The only limit is my own time, effort, and energy. You think this means that we're all equal; we all have equal access to sharing bytes. But the problem is that trolls have infinite time and energy to post bytes. They have significantly more power and influence than you do because of that…

It is an irrational belief that trolls have infinite time and energy. This is, in fact, the very idea of irrationality, who's concept indicates additional work must be done to determine outcome of choice, either by individual or by group. Note that I did not disagree with your assertions here, but simply seek to restate them in slightly different terms so they may be visualized by others more effectively. Trolls may…

> It is an irrational belief that trolls have infinite time and energy.

Infinite is certainly a hyperbole; but trolls typically have more time and energy to devote to destruction than you do. I have experienced it. Some trolls are mentally ill -- I have had to deal with that as well.

I honestly don't know what else you're trying to say here but you did use a lot of bytes to do it.

Re: Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say

#166

Post by watwut »

KaiserPro wrote: post #110
st3v3r wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, but this "ignore the trolls" meme has been proven wrong time and again these past few years. It's not a solution.

I'm going to get specific here. I'm not talking about a bullying campaign that's branched out into the digital world, that is what I would class as actual trolling. I run a blog that talks about the specifics of labour law. A number of posts resonated with a profession that was going through a tough time. As time drew on, what was professional unity devolved into infighting along two lines: accept a new contract, or…

"Twitter/facebook/email can all be erased."

That can mean professional or social isolation for quite a lot of people - or at least disadvantage. The moment your blog, github account, facebook account or twitters matters for employers, peers, business, conferences you would like talk at or negotiations is the moment when walking away affects you.

Re: Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say

#167

Post by sp332 »

problems wrote: post #157
sp332 wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is pretty egregious victim-blaming. If someone is getting abused it is the fault of the abuser and no one else.

You're as much a victim here as someone who downloads a tiny executable off a filesharing network and thinks it's the latest movie or game. Or falls for a Nigerian scam. These are accepted facts of the internet. We defend against them. Just as much as publishing your address or information which can be associated to it should be. Precautions are important. You can never rid the world of evil, but you can protect your…

We made Nigerian scams illegal. We defend against them partly by prosecuting them. We work hard to reduce the frequency and the impact of them. But you're not saying that we should do any of that for trolls. I don't accept that trolling is just something that necessarily happens and that we need to accept. We can hold trolls accountable and work to reduce trolling overall.

Re: Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say

#168

Post by wvenable »

czep wrote: post #30
wvenable wrote: post #13

The real problem is that bytes are effectively free. Here I am, using up your bytes right now. Using up the bytes on Hacker news. The only limit is my own time, effort, and energy. You think this means that we're all equal; we all have equal access to sharing bytes. But the problem is that trolls have infinite time and energy to post bytes. They have significantly more power and influence than you do because of that…

What are some good tips for controlling or at least mitigating trolling on sites that depend on user generated content? Moderation, flagging, downvoting, IP address rate limits, keyword blacklisting, are these effective?

I banned an entire country once -- not the best way to go but after all other mitigations failed it was the last choice available. And it wasn't China or Russia.

It's almost impossible to give everyone the same number of bytes of work with -- if you can solve that problem you've solved it all.

Re: Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say

#169

Post by Jarwain »

kordless wrote: post #68
maxerickson wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look how much more you expended than the person trolling you though. If you are willing to be manipulative, you can hassle people into wasting their time with pretty short comments.

Visualize other's truths at the expense of your own.

What do you mean by this?

Re: Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say

#170

Post by problems »

sp332 wrote: post #167
problems wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're as much a victim here as someone who downloads a tiny executable off a filesharing network and thinks it's the latest movie or game. Or falls for a Nigerian scam. These are accepted facts of the internet. We defend against them. Just as much as publishing your address or information which can be associated to it should be. Precautions are important. You can never rid the world of evil, but you can protect your…

We made Nigerian scams illegal. We defend against them partly by prosecuting them. We work hard to reduce the frequency and the impact of them. But you're not saying that we should do any of that for trolls. I don't accept that trolling is just something that necessarily happens and that we need to accept. We can hold trolls accountable and work to reduce trolling overall.

> We made Nigerian scams illegal. We defend against them partly by prosecuting them. We work hard to reduce the frequency and the impact of them.

And guess what? They still happen. We already have the laws to attack the kind of "troll" that shows up at your door in many cases - but guess what? It still happens. Ultimately the law only gets you so far. So we must defend against them in more effective ways - like individual knowledge.

It's a lot easier and more effective to guarantee safety with online matters when you behave safely online than when you start taking risks and expect the law, the website or whatever else to deal with the consequences. That's just wishfully naive thinking.

Yes, in an absolute sense, all harm should be blamed on the abuser, I don't mean to suggest otherwise. But the prevention potential is so much higher if you can attack it at it's destination than at its source - like using a firewall on your server instead of just saying "hacking is illegal, therefore no one will hack me".

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