Live data from Hacker News

A linguist on Arrival's alien language (2016)

slate.com

161–170 of 178 posts

Re: A linguist on Arrival's alien language (2016)

#161
"What I gathered is that the written form is not encoding the sounds of the spoken form, right? And certain dialects of Chinese are like that. They have these characters and the characters stand for a word or a concept, but a Chinese character isn’t made up of individual symbols that stand for individuals sounds in the way that English does. In English, the word dog has a D and that corresponds to the sound duh. In Chinese, it’s not quite that way. Now I gather there is a phonetic aspect to Chinese, but largely Chinese uses logograms, where the symbol stands for the word. It doesn’t stand for a sound.

"You don’t really pronounce the logogram.

"Right, it’s not phonetic in the way that English is phonetic. So I took the alien language to be that kind of writing system. I still took the visual system to be encoding the same concepts of the oral system so that the aliens would have for any given concept a written version and a spoken version. Logographic systems on Earth are essentially similar. The Japanese have three different writing systems. One of them, Kanji, is shared with Chinese. The spoken languages are very different. The Japanese speaker and the Chinese speaker can’t talk to each other, but they share a writing system because the writing system doesn’t actually match phonetically onto the sounds of the language."

I began to doubt the linguist here. I understand that many people use 'logogram' as a shorthand to describe whatever Chinese is, but she seems to be taking it seriously.

Chinese isn't written with 1 symbol per word (or idea or whatever); it would be more true to say that it is syllabic, where most common Chinese words are one syllable.

Many (most?) Chinese glyphs are made up of a root and a radical, where one part indicates the "class" or "topic" of the symbol and the other indicates the pronunciation (at least at one time).

She seems to be dancing around the idea that a Chinese speaker and a Japanese speaker could communicate by writing, each in their respective languages, and be understood through the magic of Kanji/logograms. That is not the case, too my understanding.

I'm given to understand that one feature of all known natural writing systems is that they are based off of the languages' vocabulary, grammar, etc., however hidden by changes between when the writing system was formalized and now. The idea that a writing system would not record what someone would say is weird.

Re: A linguist on Arrival's alien language (2016)

#162
post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a fair criticism, though I would assume that since the heptapods can see the future, there's some rationale for specifically wanting "Louise" to learn the language first instead of just distributing a copy of "Heptapod for dummies."

Yeah I tried to go that route but acting upon knowledge of the future is a narrative slippery slope. It's valid for a story setup I think, but not for explaining details. The movie acts like memories of the future are not fully under one's control and, with that imperfect knowledge, you can't expect humans or aliens to make perfect plans or optimal choices. But when memories come right when needed to solve situations…

I got the sense that the memories of the future being beyond Louise's control was due to her novice level command of heptapod. The heptapods seem to know events 3000 years in advance, so it seems they can plan well. Also, they seemed undisturbed by Abbot's death which leads me to believe they were also aware that would happen.

Which is also something interesting to consider. Death is probably less bothersome if your perception of time is non-linear.

Re: A linguist on Arrival's alien language (2016)

#163
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Piraha language is probably inadequate for developing interstellar travel. As was English hundreds of years ago. You need numbers, and names for concepts like energy, mass, momentum, and time.

Numbers and math are required for theoretical space travel, but not necessarily for practical space travel. Catching a ball requires solving differential equations, but children and animals are capable of performing this action with no problem. Given that there is so much of physics that we have yet to understand (assuming what we think to be true is actually true), and given the infinite possibilities of what forms…

Another way to do 'practical space travel' without 'theoretical space travel' is with tools. Just because you can't develop it with your language doesn't mean you can't use a tool someone else developed, or even an animal that evolved with the capability.

Re: A linguist on Arrival's alien language (2016)

#164

The Himba tribe in Africa have an interesting perception of color which is believed to stem from their language[1]. For example, their language uses the same word for what westerners separately call green and blue. As a result, they cannot seem to distinguish the colors when presented to them. [1] https://vimeo.com/120808489

The ancient Japanese also had one word for shades of green and blue.

Re: A linguist on Arrival's alien language (2016)

#166
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting! I think I am starting to get it. To double check, is running a grammar the same as parsing?

The two-level grammars are doing things in two steps: parsing of part of the text yields a grammar for parsing the rest of it. The Algol-68 was specified using two level grammar and if I understand it correctly, the declaration part constrained parsing of the statement part so that only valid expressions can be parsed. Parsed statements are valid in the semantic sense, i.e., the subscription can be applied only to ar…

Wow, the two-level grammar concept is incredible! I have some learning to do. Thank you for sharing.

Re: A linguist on Arrival's alien language (2016)

#167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not so sure that numbers are universal. If your species were hive-like or highly solipsistic, you wouldn't necessarily have the need for numbers (although it is still plausible that they could use "us" vs "them", or "myself" vs "the outside world", but that's not exactly the same as "plural"). Even humans have languages that don't have numbers above of "one, two, three, many"; so long for generalized numbers bein…

How would you build a spaceship (or international ship... Whatever) without a concept of numbers?

Who says they build spaceships? Maybe they grow spaceships, and evolve various versions until one of them has the desired properties for space travel. You don't even need to be intelligent to achieve that.

Re: A linguist on Arrival's alien language (2016)

#168
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes --- we do that because we are symbolic creatures. We serialise thoughts into sequences of symbols so that we can express them tonally, in series, to other people. We express mathematical concepts the same way. Naturally, the machines we built to help us do these things also work symbolically. Machines built by people who think differently will work differently.

First, no, we use digital machines because manipulating analog quantities is an impossible mess. The essence of an analog quantity is that it is unquantified, and therefore there is no real way of telling if two quantities are the same or not, or whether they would have been the same if one of the two hadn't been perturbed by something. Whenever you write down (or emit in any way) analog information, you're losing pa…

You may need to quantize data for error correction (as in "a trigger that differentiates symbol A from symbol B"), but you don't need numbers for that (as in "an arbitrary chaining of the sequence operator", which is the base of natural numbers).

You can have logic -binary or not- to define rules of inference, without defining a particular rule of inference for numbers (measuring quantities).

As someone else sort of implied elsewhere [1], if aliens use mathematics at all, it would probably be easier to reason with them in terms of topology rather than number theory.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13969500

Re: A linguist on Arrival's alien language (2016)

#169
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

Ah I meant 1D. My thought train at the time was occupied with our writing systems being 2D.

So, that's the whole thing about manifolds.

A (hollow) circle lives in 2D space, but is actually one-dimensional. How so? I can continuously map it to two 1D structures, one straight line for the top part and one straight line for the bottom part.

Now, there are moments (such as a cursive "e", for example) where our line crosses itself (so there's a point in two different "regions" of the line), so we can't say that all cursive writing is 1D. But it's darn close to being so.

What's more: even though our characters are darn-close-to-being-1D, the text we write with them is 1-dimensional. Some concrete poetry has tried to be two-dimensional, to little effect, but we mostly have sequential thoughts and a sequential language -- and only 1D structures can be sequential.

Re: A linguist on Arrival's alien language (2016)

#170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you sure? ;-) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intuitionism

Even they believe (non-negative) integers.

As someone leaning towards Intuitionism myself, I believe in processes with operations that can be repeatedly applied any number of times without breaking themselves apart; such as applying the "successor" operator to "0", to "successor(0)"... to build any particular natural number, given enough time and memory.

I don't believe in the existence of a set containing all natural numbers at the same time, except as an idea to talk about.

Post reply on HN