In Manufacturing and Retail, Robot Labor is Cheaper Than Slave Labor Would Be • Hacker News Board

Re: In Manufacturing and Retail, Robot Labor is Cheaper Than Slave Labor Would Be

#161

Post by fapjacks » Fri, Mar 17, 2017, 5:13 PM UTC

lohi wrote: post #117

bad_user wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do think that automating cashiers at McDonald’s would be a big mistake. We tend to underestimate the human interaction, however it's far harder to refuse a " would you like fries with that? " type of question coming from a human, rather than from a stupid interface on which we'll tap " Skip " as an automatic gesture and without regrets. Talking with another human is also good when you're undecided about what to buy…

Oh, I don't think it will work in the US (at least not initially). Americans are accustomed to a certain level of service, in part because of cheap labor. I remember standing behind an American family at McDonald's and their order was just on another level, very specific. Nothing wrong with that, they are getting their money's worth, just different expectations. We've had automated ordering at local chains in Sweden…

I've never been in a Max Burger place that didn't have humans also taking orders.

Re: In Manufacturing and Retail, Robot Labor is Cheaper Than Slave Labor Would Be

#162

Post by SilasX » Fri, Mar 17, 2017, 5:17 PM UTC

BurningFrog wrote: post #145

cobookman wrote: post #137

This rings home with me soo much. I've interacted with a few startups designing robots to replace human labor. Was scary to see that automation is here its just too expensive compared to human labor. But technology generally decreases in cost over time while human labor gets gradually more expensive. So its only a matter of time that all manual labor is replaced by robots.

People have said that it's only a matter of time before all manual labor is replaced by machines since the industrial revolution started. Yet it keeps not having happened just yet. EDIT: I'm talking about all human work, not just physical labor. The "manual labor" part of the quote confuses my intended point.

People have said that it's only a matter of time before all horse labor is replaced by machines since the wheel was invented.

Yet it keeps not having happened yet.

What do you think about Wilson's 14 Points, by the way?

Re: In Manufacturing and Retail, Robot Labor is Cheaper Than Slave Labor Would Be

#163

Post by thehardsphere » Fri, Mar 17, 2017, 5:23 PM UTC

thr3290 wrote: post #24

> On the other hand, if institutionalized slavery still existed, factories would be looking at around $7,500 in annual costs for housing, food and healthcare per “worker”. There is a wrong assumption that factory has to cover those expenses. In reality this cost is often offloaded to government or another party.

Uhh, when they're property of the company and not actually considered people?

I'm pretty sure you have to be considered a person in order to qualify for food stamps, Medicaid, and Section 8 housing vouchers. I mean, idk because all of those things came about after slavery.

Re: In Manufacturing and Retail, Robot Labor is Cheaper Than Slave Labor Would Be

#164

Post by gozur88 » Fri, Mar 17, 2017, 5:27 PM UTC

aaron695 wrote: post #30

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #21

There are some interesting lessons to learn from history here that I'm not seeing brought up. Looking across multiple cultures and economies that had slavery, slavery has a negative impact on both slaves and slaveholders . Of course, nobody cared about the impact on slaveholders while there were actual humans being enslaved, but as we move to a robotic society? This is going to be a huge deal. Slaveholders and multi-…

> slavery has a negative impact on both slaves and slaveholders. What's the negative as a slaveholder again?

It's not so much the slaveholder as an individual, but the slaveholding society. You end up with large numbers of free men who aren't invested in the society because their labor is effectively worthless. They may revolt, or it may just be when there's a threat to the society (invasion, most commonly, or a big natural disaster) they aren't willing to make any sacrifices to save it. And you certainly can't rely on your slaves to fight off an invader.

Re: In Manufacturing and Retail, Robot Labor is Cheaper Than Slave Labor Would Be

#165

Post by ianmcgowan » Fri, Mar 17, 2017, 5:28 PM UTC

gozur88 wrote: post #156

mjevans wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

History. The French Revolution speaks of what happens when the populace at large decides that the situation cannot continue. Of course what would history remember of them had they lost?

But the only reason the revolution succeeded is the French army was made up of people, some of whom decided to throw their lot in with the people against the aristocrats. The new aristocracy will have robotic soldiers with no empathy for people.

Perhaps programmers are the equivalent in this new revolution?

It's ironic that the robot owners don't make, program, direct or have much to do with the specifics of implementing. If you're dependent on a robot army to keep your serfs in line, then the people programming that robot army have some interesting opportunities open to them. I imagine the code reviews will be pretty stringent.

Would a technocracy be better or worse than a plutocracy?

Re: In Manufacturing and Retail, Robot Labor is Cheaper Than Slave Labor Would Be

#166

Post by TheAdamist » Fri, Mar 17, 2017, 5:29 PM UTC

bad_user wrote: post #106

rejschaap wrote: post #4

"If it takes $2,000 to install what is basically an iPad and stand for customers to order from at McDonald’s or Chipotle, a restaurateur is looking at less than a month before recouping their entire investment if they eliminate just one cashier position." Obviously it takes a little bit more than that. You need to develop the software that runs on the kiosk. You also need a back-end system so the kitchen knows what t…

I do think that automating cashiers at McDonald’s would be a big mistake. We tend to underestimate the human interaction, however it's far harder to refuse a " would you like fries with that? " type of question coming from a human, rather than from a stupid interface on which we'll tap " Skip " as an automatic gesture and without regrets. Talking with another human is also good when you're undecided about what to buy…

Wawa's (mid-atlantic convenience store) sandwich / burrito / etc ordering process has been fully automated and customizable for a while. Order at a kiosk, go pickup whatever you want for a drink, go pay at the (human) cashier and your food is just about ready for you when you get back to the sandwich counter. It works pretty well.

Re: In Manufacturing and Retail, Robot Labor is Cheaper Than Slave Labor Would Be

#167

Post by jl6 » Fri, Mar 17, 2017, 5:30 PM UTC

mafribe wrote: post #92

mattmanser wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

History completely disagrees with you though. The Roman empire. Biggest, most successful, longest lived empire that ever was? Built on slaves. The net benefit to them of using slaves vastly outweighs any downside that you can point to. Almost all slave rebellions ended in failure, I'm aware of one example of success in the millenia of slaves, Haiti. A friend of mine once said slaves became obsolete with the advent of…

Almost all slave rebellions ended in failure, Interestingly most slave rebellions were not about the abolition of slavery as an institution but about flipping the slave/slaveholder role. An interesting recent example of this phenomenon is the religion Rastafarianism where the notion of paradise is a state of affairs where whites are slaves to blacks. example of success in the millenia of slaves, Haiti. Success in the…

> An interesting recent example of this phenomenon is the religion Rastafarianism where the notion of paradise is a state of affairs where whites are slaves to blacks.

Are you sure about that? Sounds like you might be stating the position of an extremist subset of Rastafarians.

Re: In Manufacturing and Retail, Robot Labor is Cheaper Than Slave Labor Would Be

#168

Post by thehardsphere » Fri, Mar 17, 2017, 5:34 PM UTC

k_sze wrote: post #64

So it's now harder to say with a straight face "we're using robots because it's more ethical than exploiting people". "No, it's just cheaper."

It can be both. The fact that we say "it's cheaper" doesn't preclude "it's more ethical" especially when everybody agrees already that the presented alternative isn't ethical.

Burning coal to generate electricity is both cheaper and more ethical than burning live toddlers. You don't say "we use coal for electricity instead of toddlers because it's more ethical" because that's self-evident to anybody but a true psychopath.

Re: In Manufacturing and Retail, Robot Labor is Cheaper Than Slave Labor Would Be

#169

Post by thehardsphere » Fri, Mar 17, 2017, 5:48 PM UTC

pygy_ wrote: post #27

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #21

There are some interesting lessons to learn from history here that I'm not seeing brought up. Looking across multiple cultures and economies that had slavery, slavery has a negative impact on both slaves and slaveholders . Of course, nobody cared about the impact on slaveholders while there were actual humans being enslaved, but as we move to a robotic society? This is going to be a huge deal. Slaveholders and multi-…

With capital becoming self-sufficient and human labour non-competitive, why would you think robots would serve us on a large scale? What's the incentive to serve and feed idle meat bags? Automation is destroying the only power that people still had over capital. Capitalism is the ultimate paperclip maximizer... a zombie that feeds on growth rather than brains. https://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Paperclip_maximizer Edit:…

> Capitalism is the ultimate paperclip maximizer... a zombie that feeds on growth rather than brains.

The "paperclip" that "Capitalism" seeks to maximize is money in exchange for goods and services that people want.

The robots aren't going to be built in the first place if they're not going to serve somebody, and if they no longer provide things that people want in exchange for money, their owners will turn them off or repurpose them.

"Capitalism" isn't the problem here; it might be that robots could be paperclip maximizers, but that's a danger regardless of whether you have Robot Capitalists or or Robot Communists or Robot ISIS or whatever.

Re: In Manufacturing and Retail, Robot Labor is Cheaper Than Slave Labor Would Be

#170

Post by crdoconnor » Fri, Mar 17, 2017, 6:04 PM UTC

_bpgl wrote: post #147

BurningFrog wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People have said that it's only a matter of time before all manual labor is replaced by machines since the industrial revolution started. Yet it keeps not having happened just yet. EDIT: I'm talking about all human work, not just physical labor. The "manual labor" part of the quote confuses my intended point.

> People have said that it's only a matter of time...Yet it keeps not having happened just yet. That's incredibly facile. Were there solid state digital electronics at the beginning of the Industrial Revolution? Was there machine learning? Motion control? Systems engineering? A robotics industry? Just aping the "power source of the future" line from the fusion joke and pretending it's the trenchant result of long exp…

Why do you think that the future will similarly not have jobs that you can't conceive of now?

As far as I can tell the only special thing about automation in today's world is that the jobs being created are more often being created abroad than they are in the US (e.g. the million or so people employed by Foxconn in China) and predictions of automation destroying jobs are very blatantly being used politically as a way to draw flak away from job destroying trade agreements and austerian measures.