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Password Rules Are Bullshit

blog.codinghorror.com

161–170 of 283 posts

Re: Password Rules Are Bullshit

#161
post #27
post #3

Here's another problem that isn't discussed very much: error messaging and failure modes. I use a command line tool to generate passwords, and I use a password database to store them. It has happened to me before that the maximum password length is something disconcertingly small, like 20 characters. I would copy and paste my password, submit, and then failed to be able to login. Why? Because my password in the "crea…

Funny thing is this sort of password bug bit me on PayPal. PayPal of all places! Not sure if it was the length or a disallowed character, but no actual validation took place. Would let you "change" it to something and then never allow you login.

I actually ended up on the phone with PayPal support because of this, they were one of the companies I had in mind.

Re: Password Rules Are Bullshit

#162
The trick of password rules should be (and this is what xkcd was getting at) to trick users into using passwords that they find easy to memorize, but are still high entropy. Long passwords can be high entropy, but, as highlighted at the end, they can just as easily be low entropy. If they needed to memorize it quickly, most users would pick a low entropy long password. Also, every users opinion of what makes a long password easy to memorize will be about the same - repeated letters, patterns on the keyboard, english words. This means that you can try to detect easy to memorize password, and flag them as bad. However, users will find something easy to memorize you don't block, and use that instead. This new thing will probably be common to all users as well. I once had someone inform a group that they should all use the first three letters of their names to overcome a password restriction. While the restriction probably assumed people would pick a random three letter string, they instead chose an even more obvious one then they would have otherwise.

When making password restrictions, try to force every user to come up with a different opinion of easy to memorize. For example, you could display pictures of ten foods, and ask users to pick their favourite food. Since eveyones likes different food, their choices would probably have a relatively even distribution. Moreover, upon returning, each user would reidentify the same food as their favourite. By extending this to a larger field of subjective values, you could make the overall datapoint high entropy, while maintaining memorizability.

Re: Password Rules Are Bullshit

#163
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two ways why I think E-Mails are useful at signup: - Password Recovery (this can be optional though, for my sites it usually is) - 'Legit Users', sending an email and having them confirmed through a code in them gives a bit more confidence in the user

'legit users' There isn't a day that goes by that I don't get an email intended for someone else, often including personal information, due to a mistyped email address. Whoever decided that email verification was a poor user experience needs to be hit in the head with a shovel after he digs the appropriate sized hole. If you know Catherin (PA) let her know her round trip to vegas is confirmed Carolyn's (NYC) open tab…

same here. apropos xkcd:

https://xkcd.com/1279/

My most entertaining email yet was a group thread that kept track of a young missionary's progress as he traveled through South America. He's home now, so I don't get weekly updates anymore :( I almost miss it.

Re: Password Rules Are Bullshit

#164
post #69
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I mean, I can imagine that a clueless user might have the illusion of safety if they're using something like "1q2w3e4r5t" but if I use "aaaaaaaaa" as a password on a website I know full well what I'm doing. So why even bother? It's not an illusion, 1q2w3e4r5t is indeed better than aaaaaaaaa, even if it's just the numbers interleaved with qwerty (and probably easy to brute force generate up to it). > if I use "aaaaa…

> 1q2w3e4r5t "COMMON PASSWORD: IN THE TOP 9635 MOST USED PASSWORDS Your password is very commonly used. It would be cracked almost instantly[1]" I do realise there's a difference between cracking a local system password vs a website password but always assume a site's database is going to be leaked at some point [1] https://howsecureismypassword.net/ (Don't go putting real passwords in there..)

It would take a computer about

47 TREDECILLION YEARS to crack your password

Why not create even stronger passwords with Dashlane? It's free!

I didn't know that was a number!

Re: Password Rules Are Bullshit

#165

I'm surprised that this article didn't mention the most important point about password rules: They force you to come up with a new password that you probably haven't used before and so you will probably forget it. There are websites that I don't use often where I literally have to reset the password (and go through all the i-forgot-my-password steps) every time I want to log in because they forced me to come up with…

My current pet peeve with password resets goes like this:

1) Forgot the password, start the recovery process.

2) Get to the "create a new password" phase, look at the rules.

3) Rules require special characters, caps, etc. So I make one.

4) I get the "This password has been used before" error.

5) Now I have to think up a new random one.

If that password 'that was used before' was the current one, why can't I just continue to use it??? Now I remember the password (usually because of the silly special character requirements), so we're good, right? Wrong.

Re: Password Rules Are Bullshit

#166
I just use the recover your password functionality over and over on many sites. I hit some keys typing into notepad then paste that into both password reset boxes and then paste it again logging in. Sometimes though I have to type A1! on the end if the site requires capitals or a number or a special character.

Re: Password Rules Are Bullshit

#167
post #146

The most recent post in one of the Tumblrs linked through the article goes through some of Facebook's password allowances: http://password-shaming.tumblr.com/post/157913813567/not-ent... Essentially, Facebook accepts 4 forms of the password as correct: 1) the correct password, 2) the caps-lock inverted version, 3) the correct password but with the first letter capitalized, and 4) the correct password + 1 character of…

That's brilliant! All they need to do is enforce entropy, and those become only helpful, not vectors... :-)

Re: Password Rules Are Bullshit

#168
post #146

The most recent post in one of the Tumblrs linked through the article goes through some of Facebook's password allowances: http://password-shaming.tumblr.com/post/157913813567/not-ent... Essentially, Facebook accepts 4 forms of the password as correct: 1) the correct password, 2) the caps-lock inverted version, 3) the correct password but with the first letter capitalized, and 4) the correct password + 1 character of…

[deleted]

Re: Password Rules Are Bullshit

#169
post #35
post #25

I agree with almost everything but the he loses me towards the end: > I had a bit of a sad when I realized that we were perfectly fine with users selecting a 10 character password that was literally "aaaaaaaaaa". In my opinion, the simplest way to do this is to ensure that there are at least (x) unique characters out of (y) total characters. Isn't that exactly what you're complaining about with your arbitrary passwor…

Yes and yes! Many throwaway accounts I have use some variation of the same password, because I don't care if someone hacks my HN or reddit or youtube account. I don't use my real name on any of them. If I lose control of it, I'll just make a new one. (Karma doesn't pay the bills, and I don't make money from my very excellent youtube comments; someone else does.) This is why all these accounts get an email account tha…

That's the problem -- you don't care, but I do as a site operator.

Re: Password Rules Are Bullshit

#170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wonder what other sins are there. A couple of years ago when iCloud was first a thing, I did a couple of password changes in quick succession. It resulted in me having different login passwords for different iCloud services. It worked for a short time then broke and another reset fixed it all.

Enforced password reset questions. There's a limited set of about 10 questions (trivial stuff like "where were you born?"), and you have to set 3 of them. About half a year ago, I was forced to do this in order to be able to log in again (I'm only occasionally using it for publishing iOS apps). What is this, Hotmail in 2005?

And the questions haven't changed in decades. It's pretty simple to figure out things like "name of high school attended", "street you grew up on", "model of first car", "mother's maiden name", etc for just about anyone who has a social media account.
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