Live data from Hacker News

Healthy California Act: proposal to make findings about single-payer healthcare

leginfo.legislature.ca.gov

161–170 of 468 posts

Re: Healthy California Act: proposal to make findings about single-payer healthcare

#161
post #5

A well-executed single-payer system would make California even more attractive for entrepreneurship and increase labor mobility for everyone. Life would be much easier if we could start companies or switch jobs without worrying about healthcare.

Here's the only thing I'm confused about. Do we have examples of the government running a service better than the private sector? I'm not 100% on this, but it seems all of the best aspects of American services come from competition and letting capitalism thrive. Would love a counter opinion.

> Here's the only thing I'm confused about. Do we have examples of the government running a service better than the private sector?

Medicare is a good case study, because Medicare has both publicly managed plans and privately managed plans.

As it turns out Medicare Advantage (the privately managed plans) consistently beat Original Medicare on the three primary metrics: cost, medical outcomes, and patient satisfaction scores.

(In fact, Original Medicare has the lowest satisfaction rates of all major Medicare plans).

Re: Healthy California Act: proposal to make findings about single-payer healthcare

#162
post #30

I'm excited to see this show up on hacker news. As a Santa Monica resident, I'd gladly pay more in taxes for universal coverage. The only way that we are going to achieve federal universal coverage is via states paving the way. Just as "Romney care" was a predecessor to the ACA, so can healthy California pave the way for the US to join the rest of the modern world with guaranteed access.

Just curious why you would gladly pay more? Can you elaborate?

It's generally just good for the entire community with benefits felt in a myriad of other issues, like gun violence, suicides, abortions, mental health, crime, drug and alcohol abuse, homelessness etc...

The question is, why wouldn't a society or community want universal healthcare for it's people?

Re: Healthy California Act: proposal to make findings about single-payer healthcare

#163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As a mid-30s person who earns a decent tech salary ... you can afford it. Moreso that others. You _are_ the wealth.

He can afford it. Others can't. Why should he pay for them just because they have a lower value?

So these 'lower value' people should just die when they get cancer?

I find the idea that not being able to earn a high enough salary means you are unworthy of basic medical care repugnant.

Re: Healthy California Act: proposal to make findings about single-payer healthcare

#164
I simultaneously believe in universal coverage as a moral imperative, but also the efficiency of markets over government AND basic income as a necessity as automation displaces millions of workers.

So, why not combine concepts - start off with basic income that has to be spent on health care insurance. Start with enough for coverage against major issues, but people can spend more for more coverage.

Universal coverage is attained immediately without any individual mandates. Giant, wasteful bureaucracies go away. Prices are controlled via market forces.

And it paves the way for a system of basic income...

Re: Healthy California Act: proposal to make findings about single-payer healthcare

#165
post #72

A single payer system is a step in the right direction, however, there are deeper issues with the American healthcare system. The unit cost of healthcare is so much higher than in other developed countries. In British Columbia, physicians bill at total of around $31 CAD ($23 USD) for a standard office visit. They pay all their overhead out of this fee. Typically doctors keep 65% of their billings and the offices take…

Why is single payer better? Genuinely curious. I just don't have any solid proof of the American Government doing a better job than the private industry enabled by competition.

assuming you're asking in good faith, the answer is pretty simple. A larger population has more leverage, and if all of the citizens bargain as one bloc (i.e., if the government does so on their behalf), it drives the market. Note that a tremendous chunk of the market needs to be involved for this to have maximum effect -- if a physician can "opt out" of Medicare/MediCal and make more money, they will, by and large. (There's a reason that being on call instead of waiting for referrals is called "service")

Most physicians in (e.g.) the UK do participate in the single-payer market (there are a small number who make a living offering pay-as-you-go services, but they are the vanishing minority), since it dominates demand. In the US there are a great many physicians who simply won't accept Medicare rates (they're viewed as too low by most) and since there are alternative sources of patients, that's who they treat (typically privately insured). This leads to the cases that show up at County or the ER being a hell of a lot more expensive than necessary as they tend not to be survivable for long. (A running joke at most county hospitals is that conditions believed "incompatible with life" routinely walk or roll into the ER and clinics.)

If you have 1-3 insurance companies and MediCal/Medicaid and Medicare then you have different rates for different groups, almost all of it horrendously opaque, and the 3rd party insurers are not incentivized to pay for anything.

As far as private vs. public, the issue here is the same as for schools, a private insurer or school can choose not to insure or educate a "customer", the government by law cannot. In the handful of cross-over studies of charter schools or vouchers, after controlling for subject-specific effects, the children who switched from public to charter or private tended to do slightly worse than expected based on their test scores from public schools. (It is a difficult experiment to run for numerous reasons.)

Medical care, unlike most goods and services, is stunningly inelastic in demand -- you either need it and will do whatever is required to get it, or you don't and won't, by and large. (Elective surgeries for cosmetic purposes are a separate matter; nobody goes in for a stent "just because" or visits the trauma unit just to poke their head in) Furthermore, a substantial amount of the cost is centered on the first and last few years of a person's life. Unless you would like the "market driven solution" of even higher infant mortality and elderly culling to proceed, 3rd party insurers don't have the incentives to make it go.

Re: Healthy California Act: proposal to make findings about single-payer healthcare

#166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is single payer better? Genuinely curious. I just don't have any solid proof of the American Government doing a better job than the private industry enabled by competition.

It's hard to quantify 'better' but there are some major advantages to a single payer systems in terms of efficiencies. For example, a single standard for billing is in itself a major win.

Contracts and practice plans are considerably simplified ;-)

Re: Healthy California Act: proposal to make findings about single-payer healthcare

#167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even easier if people could just let others take care of _every_ whim. If there was a guaranteed income there wouldn't even be a need for entrepreneurship!

the interesting thing to me is why didn't CA make these moves under Obama if they thought they had such a better plan for healthcare... either way it's a win for DT

Urgency does wonders for the political process.

Re: Healthy California Act: proposal to make findings about single-payer healthcare

#168
post #72

A single payer system is a step in the right direction, however, there are deeper issues with the American healthcare system. The unit cost of healthcare is so much higher than in other developed countries. In British Columbia, physicians bill at total of around $31 CAD ($23 USD) for a standard office visit. They pay all their overhead out of this fee. Typically doctors keep 65% of their billings and the offices take…

Why is single payer better? Genuinely curious. I just don't have any solid proof of the American Government doing a better job than the private industry enabled by competition.

One problem is that "private industry enabled by competition" is not really an option. Deregulating healthcare would be close to impossible politically.

Re: Healthy California Act: proposal to make findings about single-payer healthcare

#169
post #5

A well-executed single-payer system would make California even more attractive for entrepreneurship and increase labor mobility for everyone. Life would be much easier if we could start companies or switch jobs without worrying about healthcare.

Here's the only thing I'm confused about. Do we have examples of the government running a service better than the private sector? I'm not 100% on this, but it seems all of the best aspects of American services come from competition and letting capitalism thrive. Would love a counter opinion.

You would do well to start questioning the idea that the private sector does anything "better". After all, it was them that gave us Enron, Deepwater Horizon, and most recently, the subprime mortgage crisis, which brought the entire world economy to its knees. Those are only a few examples that spring to mind.

In addition, comparing the government with the private sector is pretty silly. They have different goals. Private companies try to maximize profit, even if it comes with massive externalities (which, barring regulations, they happily pass on to others). Governments aim to serve their citizens, even if it comes at the expense of efficiency. This means that any given problem will be handled very differently by the private sector compared to the government. The route we pick really depends on our priorities as a society.

Re: Healthy California Act: proposal to make findings about single-payer healthcare

#170
post #72

A single payer system is a step in the right direction, however, there are deeper issues with the American healthcare system. The unit cost of healthcare is so much higher than in other developed countries. In British Columbia, physicians bill at total of around $31 CAD ($23 USD) for a standard office visit. They pay all their overhead out of this fee. Typically doctors keep 65% of their billings and the offices take…

It's the insurance companies dance with the healthcare providers. Over many decades, the insurance companies have negotiated payments much less than the quoted payment. In turn, the healthcare providers raise their rates in order to make sure they can still make money even with the discount they give insurance. When the time comes for the insurance companies to renegotiate, the same thing happens, and the healthcare…

Great insights - never considered this.

I can't imagine that insurance not being available for purchase across state lines is helping here, either.

Post reply on HN