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How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

nytimes.com

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Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#161

Post by tyingq »

RangerScience wrote: post #51

I'm confused by what laws were broken by Greyball. It's certainly deceptive, but is that illegal? In these cases I'm sympathetic to Uber - Let's call it "don't delay the pie to get your slice". One of the types of circumstances described is where a municipality doesn't know how to handle ride-shares, so Uber does questionable things to get ride-shares going while the legal situation is figured out. This seems reasona…

Obstruction of justice comes to mind. There's a concept of "misleading conduct" typically in obstruction laws.

Not sure, though, if it applies to tort type infractions...which is usually where Uber plays, or only in cases where the obstruction is hindering investigation of criminal activity.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#162

Post by zippergz »

SilasX wrote: post #111

It took me about 8 paragraphs in to figure out what Greyball is, so to save you the time: Uber used various data sources to identify which people are likely government officials who are trying to collect incriminating data on them, and then blocks them from the service so they can't be caught in sting operations. But there's a lot in the article that doesn't make sense: >Other techniques included looking at the user’…

The first part of a credit card number is called the BIN, which stands for Bank Identification Number. With that, you can tell which bank issued the card (aka the issuer).

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#163

Post by snappyTertle »

HorizonXP wrote: post #6

How diabolical! In a world where privacy has been traded away for convenience, it's poetic justice where a startup uses data mining techniques to subvert the government. This is the same government that would have no issues to use the same techniques to spy on its own people for its own motives. I'm neither on Uber nor the government's side in this case, just simply making an observation. The lack of data privacy see…

I think the better question is: Does the law that Uber is subverting make sense in the first place?

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#164

Post by untog »

downandout wrote: post #86

This is certainly a hardball approach, but I see nothing especially wrong with it. When you install Uber, you authorize it to send location data. If you happen to work at a transportation enforcement office, that is going to be immediately apparent to them unless you take countermeasures, such as using a GPS spoofing app. If I declare myself to be an enemy of a given entity, I fully expect them to use every resource…

> If I declare myself to be an enemy of a given entity, I fully expect them to use every resource at their disposal to attempt to defeat me

What an absolutely absurd way to characterise the actions of those who enforce law with those who attempt to break it.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#165

Post by anigbrowl »

lacampbell wrote: post #68
maldusiecle wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My perspective is the opposite. In a world where large multinationals have the power to evade the law in a deliberate and systematic way like this, it's easy for governments to claim they need the same kind of power. Things like this are exactly what bureaucrats point to when they make their arguments for a surveillance state. I don't like the US government much, but I like it a lot better than the average multinatio…

I don't like the US government much, but I like it a lot better than the average multinational. When it comes down to it, we don't have more than our choice of devils. If I don't like Uber, I can... stop using Uber. What can I do if I don't like the service a state provides - can I opt out and stop paying? No, my only option is to flee - which the state will often try and prevent you doing anyway. The state is a huge…

Sorry, services like Uber have externalities and do not only impact their consumers.

Your only option to avoid this involuntary charge s to flee

Bollocks. People organize for and achieve their political goals by modifying government on a regular basis. Governmental institutions suffer from numerous flaws, but your argument is that government is fundamentally totalitarian which is nonsense.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#166

Post by hackuser »

downandout wrote: post #86

This is certainly a hardball approach, but I see nothing especially wrong with it. When you install Uber, you authorize it to send location data. If you happen to work at a transportation enforcement office, that is going to be immediately apparent to them unless you take countermeasures, such as using a GPS spoofing app. If I declare myself to be an enemy of a given entity, I fully expect them to use every resource…

> If I declare myself to be an enemy of a given entity, I fully expect them to use every resource at their disposal to attempt to defeat me

For dealing with individuals, I don't agree that it's ok to use every resource at their disposal. For example, getting the person fired or slandering them is not acceptable.

But this is dealing with government. Avoiding the law and law enforcement is wrong and often illegal.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#167

Post by mavrc »

darawk wrote: post #121
nemacol wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can vote, run for office, petition, volunteer, protest,etc to the local, state, and federal government to have policies that reflect your values. The only thing you can do with Uber is use it or not. Maybe you could write Uber a letter. You have a say in government - that is its stated goal and purpose. Of the people for the people.

The 'say' you have in government is much smaller than the 'say' you have in using Uber. I can choose not to use Uber any time I please. I can not choose not to be pulled over for speeding, or opt out of murder laws temporarily. The fact that you don't have a say in Uber's corporate decisions is irrelevant, because you can simply stop using it. You don't need a say. The fact that you can't opt out of government is why…

> The 'say' you have in government is much smaller than the 'say' you have in using Uber. I can choose not to use Uber any time I please.

True.

I have effectively no choice in ISP, and no choice in power company. At what point do I get to vote on seats on my ISP's board, or my power company's?

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#168

Post by SilasX »

fisherjeff wrote: post #140
SilasX wrote: post #111

It took me about 8 paragraphs in to figure out what Greyball is, so to save you the time: Uber used various data sources to identify which people are likely government officials who are trying to collect incriminating data on them, and then blocks them from the service so they can't be caught in sting operations. But there's a lot in the article that doesn't make sense: >Other techniques included looking at the user’…

> I couldn't find a good source, but it doesn't seem like that's something a CC merchant would have access to. Do they really get to see that? The first six digits identify the issuing institution. Here's a free service for looking up a bank based on that information: https://binbase.com

Interesting! But don't the CC agreements require them to only use CC numbers for the absolute minimum purposes necessary to process the transaction? (They can't store the numbers themselves except the last four digits IIRC.)

So (based on the site) they could presumably use that number as part of fraud prevention but not to "identify possible narcs" -- I imagine the CC companies will be livid at this usage.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#169

Post by sidlls »

I'm a bit torn by this. On the one hand Uber is a terrible company exploiting people desperate enough to sell themselves in the "gig economy" and breaking all manner of laws in the process.

On the other hand I remember my friends and neighbors being abused by police and our "justice" system on a near daily basis as I grew up so it's hard for me to muster much sympathy when their efforts are thwarted.

To me this looks like two powerful entities engaged in a game of slap-fight that ultimately disregards folks of lesser social and economic means.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#170

Post by ska »

Florin_Andrei wrote: post #110
ahoy wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Welcome to libertarianism.

This is not normal. But on Ayn Rand, it is.

Like other drugs many people experiment with in high school, a little won't hurt you but prolonged exposure to Rand can lead to cognitive deficits and antisocial behavior.
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