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Americans Are Putting Billions More Than Usual in Their 401(k)s

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Re: Americans Are Putting Billions More Than Usual in Their 401(k)s

#161

Post by entee »

chrisabrams wrote: post #75
fortytw2 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it was actually your money, paying into it would be optional.

Bingo! This is the best attitude I have seen in the whole thread. Social Security is an authoritarian play, or a power play. Another way to look at it: if every single US tax payer had to manually pay their taxes, instead of them being auto-drawn from their respective W2 employer, you'd see more people asking the question "who's money is this really?" This is why the fair tax or similar plans will never pass. The pow…

Is that true? It's certainly true that under many of these alternative tax structures, we can't fund what we do right now.

If instead there was a list that said, "Here is the amount of money that went to each of the major federal departments", maybe people would say, "really? that's cheap!" or "really? we spend that much on defense???" Who knows, but they'd be better informed.

As I recall to a rough first approximation only about 1/5 of government spending isn't Defense, Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid. That's the first thing to keep in mind when talking about deficits, taxation and priorities.

Personally every time I look at my pay statement the taxes sting badly. However, I think the more interesting discussion to have is, "what are we spending money on?"

Re: Americans Are Putting Billions More Than Usual in Their 401(k)s

#162

Post by TallGuyShort »

thesimpsons1022 wrote: post #141

obviously alabama and wisconsin need their votes to count much more than california or new york. rednecks deserve their voice to be heard 10x more than well educated tolerant people on the coasts.

I think you mean tolerant-of-a-different-subset-of-things.

Re: Americans Are Putting Billions More Than Usual in Their 401(k)s

#163

Post by jimmyk »

wang_li wrote: post #152
thraway2016 wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...the SSTF holds exclusively US Treasury notes and bonds as assets. You're describing a distinction without a difference, as other parts of the USG have already spent the surplus.

I'm not sure I understand where you're coming from as it assumes that the US won't be paying back its debts. Do you also consider that money you deposit into your checking and savings accounts as having disappeared into a black hole?

The point is that in order for government to pay back its debts, it has to tax people (or fire up the printing press).

Re: Americans Are Putting Billions More Than Usual in Their 401(k)s

#164

Post by hoorayimhelping »

tingletech wrote: post #80
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is not an entitlement, it's your money That's not how social security works. Every dollar you pay in flies out to fund promises made in years past. "Your" social security money needs to be earned by our children.

That's why we need immigration policies that let us keep enough working age people in the country

No, that's why we need people not to bet their retirement on a pyramid scheme, which is the point the parent of this whole conversation was making.

Re: Americans Are Putting Billions More Than Usual in Their 401(k)s

#165

Post by ryandrake »

readams wrote: post #147
grzm wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't this similar to investments or savings where you put in money expecting to receive something in the future? That money isn't static, it's actively being used in other ways. For example, money I deposit in my bank account today is going out into loans the bank is issuing today. I'm not taking a position on Social Security, just wondering if the analogy does much useful work.

No; investments go toward productive work to create economic value. Social Security doesn't have any element that would actually create wealth. It works exactly like a Ponzi scheme.

To be fair, when I buy a company's stock on the public stock market, it's more of a lottery ticket than an investment. It's not as if buying a stock actually puts money into the company's pocket for them to use to "create economic value". Buying a stock puts money into the pocket of whoever last bought that stock so that they can continue gambling.

Re: Americans Are Putting Billions More Than Usual in Their 401(k)s

#166

Post by grzm »

readams wrote: post #147
grzm wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't this similar to investments or savings where you put in money expecting to receive something in the future? That money isn't static, it's actively being used in other ways. For example, money I deposit in my bank account today is going out into loans the bank is issuing today. I'm not taking a position on Social Security, just wondering if the analogy does much useful work.

No; investments go toward productive work to create economic value. Social Security doesn't have any element that would actually create wealth. It works exactly like a Ponzi scheme.

I don't see how the analogy requires or implies the creation of economic value or productive work or any other particular use of the money, only that the money put in today is being used today for whatever purpose.

Again, I'm not arguing for or against Social Security, just whether or not the original analogy is apt. If it's not, it does no harm to those arguing against Social Security unless the argument relies largely on the analogy being sound. I can't imagine that's the case at all. If it is apt, I think it likely can be expressed in a way that more clearly shows its intent.

Re: Americans Are Putting Billions More Than Usual in Their 401(k)s

#167

Post by avn2109 »

bogomipz wrote: post #123
DoodleBuggy wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "I'm not planning on Social Security being around by the time I'm old enough to tap into it" You need to change that attitude or your complacency will allow politicians to take it from you. The fact is you pay ~16% of your paycheck into social security and medicare, it is designed to be like a pension. It is not an entitlement, it's your money.

>" The fact is you pay ~16% of your paycheck into social security." Not quite. This is actually split between the employee and the employer. With each contributing 6.2%. https://www.ssa.gov/pubs/EN-05-10022.pdf Also why are you admonishing the OP? He has every right to pessimistic about this current state of social security.

But your employer is perfectly capable of doing accounting. So they pass through their 6.2% to you.

In practice the mechanism is that every employer figures it in to their offers, such that every offer you ever receive is ~6.2% lower than it would be if SS didn't exist.

Re: Americans Are Putting Billions More Than Usual in Their 401(k)s

#168

Post by cloakandswagger »

tingletech wrote: post #80
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is not an entitlement, it's your money That's not how social security works. Every dollar you pay in flies out to fund promises made in years past. "Your" social security money needs to be earned by our children.

That's why we need immigration policies that let us keep enough working age people in the country

Or don't use a massive government sponsored Ponzi scheme for a national retirement plan.

Re: Americans Are Putting Billions More Than Usual in Their 401(k)s

#169

Post by jackvalentine »

snovv_crash wrote: post #108
jacalata wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not necessarily. The Australian superannuation program has compulsory contributions but the money goes into an account in your own name.

Do you get to choose the bank that the account is with?

Yes, and the money is easily portable between them and you choose what level of risk you're willing to tolerate.

You can even run a self-managed superannuation fund and make all the investment choices yourself if you want but people rarely do better than a standard fund.

Re: Americans Are Putting Billions More Than Usual in Their 401(k)s

#170

Post by rhino369 »

ProAm wrote: post #92

> because most individuals have virtually no influence on national outcomes. How can you say this after Trump was elected?

An individual voter has effectively zero impact. No federal office has ever come down to a single vote, and it is unlikely to happen.

It's only when we all vote together that there is power.

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