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The Real Name Fallacy

blog.coralproject.net

161–170 of 323 posts

Re: The Real Name Fallacy

#161
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've shared by real name on Usenet for decades, nobody got crazy ideas (though I've encountered quite a few crazy people). "Calling my bank and doing something silly" doesn't work in the country in live in. There's not a lot people can do with just my name.

I wonder about treating home address as such a secret. If someone wants to kill/kidnap me, they could always find me at my workplace or on a conference or sth. So what else are people going to do with my home address? Send me a postcard? In the good ol' days, we had this thing called "a phonebook", which was basically a big printed book of alphabetically sorted mappings of surname to phone number and home address...

> I wonder about treating home address as such a secret.

One of the searches for my name results in my parents' current address. If I'm a sufficiently flagrant asshole online, there could be reprecussions, anything from a glitterbomb[1] to being swatted[2]. (And what worries me that I don't even have to be a sufficiently flagrant asshole, I just have to run into one.)

[1] https://www.ruindays.com/collections/all/products/glitter-ev...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swatting_(hoaxing)

Re: The Real Name Fallacy

#162
post #159
post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reddit suffers because people in general do not believe freedom of speech is a right. I disliked the Fat People Hate subreddit, you know what I did... I did not visit the Fat People Hate subreddit. The communities I join and participate in on Reddit are moderated well and do not suffer from the problem, if you do not like what is talked about on The Donald, don't go there, not that hard. The problem is people do go,…

I agree with you here. However, Reddit and similar platforms usually can't operate under this logic. Why? Because they need to make money to stay online/keep operating. And unfortunately, that means content that alienates advertisers (like a lot of the more controversial subreddits) ends up actively hurting their revenue stream. They could try and get round this by monetising in other ways (micropayments, subscriptio…

This is one of the problems with Standards vs Platforms

Usenet vs Reddit

IRC vs Slack/Twitter

etc

I believe the internet is harmed by these Platforms in general and we should go back to Decentralized Standards for communications vs For profit Platforms

Re: The Real Name Fallacy

#163

The Real Name Fallacy is social nostalgia- if we all could go back to the village, then everything would be good? The solution for this and fake news, would be chains of trust. I do not trust my government, i do not trust my media, but i know two or three guys, i would trust too know. If these guys vouched for the guys vouching for the knowledge i see to be true, i would trust that. In return, i can fade the crack-po…

The problem is a lot of people are in social circles full of crackpots, so their friends are the crackpots that trust crackpots and spread misinformation.

A lot of these anti-reality movements only function because they have the critical mass of participation to not easily be ignored or sidelined. Once you have millions of willing participants in a lie, by that fact alone, it is given legitimacy.

Re: The Real Name Fallacy

#164
I think a lot of the commenters on this thread would do themselves well to read about Gamergate from women's perspectives, and learn about extreme online harassment.

Real names make it a little harder for attackers to hide behind anonymity, but a lot easier for those crossing lines to find their targets.

Re: The Real Name Fallacy

#165

The Real Name Fallacy is social nostalgia- if we all could go back to the village, then everything would be good? The solution for this and fake news, would be chains of trust. I do not trust my government, i do not trust my media, but i know two or three guys, i would trust too know. If these guys vouched for the guys vouching for the knowledge i see to be true, i would trust that. In return, i can fade the crack-po…

Thought about this some more- such reputation systems, suppress anonymous dissent, unless it is lend legitimacy- and they favor self-censorship..

Re: The Real Name Fallacy

#166
post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you could die using your real name on an internet service, you are much better off not using that service at all, especially if they require that you use your real name. Use of a particular service or website is not a human right. If your particular situation is such that it's unsafe or you need to violate TOS/regulations/laws by using a service... don't.

> If you could die using your real name on an internet service, you are much better off not using that service at all Classic. "I'm not at risk, so we need not change anything. Your behavior is therefore at fault." > Use of a particular service or website is not a human right. Of course not. Would you say that being able to freely live your life without threat of death (as you most likely already do) should be? Allow…

> Classic. "I'm not at risk, so we need not change anything. Your behavior is therefore at fault."

I'm sure you meant to say "Classic strawman:" because that's not at all what I said, or meant. Please actually respond to what I said and not whatever argument you heard other people make.

I think it's demonstrably true that if using Facebook is an acute risk to your life, you are better off not using. That doesn't mean you're at fault if you use it and someone kills you. But it doesn't mean that Facebook needs to change its real name policy. It means you need to weight the pros and cons of why you want to use Facebook and why using it could get you killed, and whether you're willing to risk that.

> Would you say that being able to freely live your life without threat of death (as you most likely already do) should be?

Yes.

But that doesn't mean that it's a right to do things that could engender threats to your life. A Tutsi has an inalienable right to live in Rwanda without fear of persecution or death. A Tutsi does not have an inalienable right to use Facebook (nor does anyone). If you're a Rwandan Tutsi, and you use Facebook, you should understand the risks. You should be able to use Facebook without fear or persecution or death but it's not a right any more than it's a right to have an email address or drive a particular type of car or eat a certain food on a certain day.

They're separate issues and it's Facebook's decision whether or not they want to require real names. To make that the issue ignores the fact that people are being killed because of their beliefs, or because they're transgender, or whatever the actual problem is.

> People harass me at the laundromat because of my appearance, to the point where I fear for my life. "Don't go to that laundromat ever again."

Well no, my response would be "Call the police." There are a lot of things that could happen from there. If it's actually harassment and the police address it, potentially problem solved. If it's actually harassment and police do nothing, that's a related but separate issue, and yes I would say that not going there again is the smart move. You have a right not to be killed and you have a right to wash your clothes but you don't have a right to wash your clothes in that specific laundromat at that specific time.

If it's not actually harassment then it depends what's actually happening. A group of teenagers pointing at laughing at you is uncomfortable and wrong but probably not harassment. A group of rough looking guys in a bad part of town staring at you will make most people feel uncomfortable but is also not harassment.

> People shout threats at me at the grocery store. "Don't go to that grocery store."

Call the police.

> this attitude is precisely what is meant by "white privilege."

I know you are going to hate this, but why is it the first person to bring up race is usually someone saying that something is offensive or privilege? I tend to agree that a certain level of privilege exists in the world and some of it has to do with race but Facebook's real name policy is a piss poor example of it.

Re: The Real Name Fallacy

#167
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem was that back then you didn't have service providers with lock-in on a market, like today's Facebook and the Internet was only a thing for techies, whereas nowadays more than half of the world's population has access to the Internet. Can you just not use Facebook? There are obviously only 3 choices: (1) not use it, but then you won't have an account where all of your friends are; (2) use it with your real…

There's a fourth option: use Facebook with your real name, and separately with fake name(s). For the real-name account, carefully manage "friends" to avoid problems with family, friends, coworkers, etc. Make sure that there's no leakage between your real-name account and fake-name accounts, or among fake-name accounts. Practice good compartmentalization OpSec.

There's even a fifth option: see it for what it is, and apply social pressure. Sure, people are free to use Facebook while accepting it as it is, and I'm free to cut them off for that. It's not like I am not offering arguments, but at this point the burden isn't on me anymore. We're all adults, we all have internet access and history books. It's our choice whether we follow fools or digest the hard lessons of wise men and women, and I for one am not interested in arranging deck chairs or making friends on Titanics. For all things we could feel superior to the old greeks to, I think this is spot on:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiot

> An idiot in Athenian democracy was someone who was characterized by self-centeredness and concerned almost exclusively with private—as opposed to public—affairs. Idiocy was the natural state of ignorance into which all persons were born and its opposite, citizenship, was effected through formalized education. In Athenian democracy, idiots were born and citizens were made through education (although citizenship was also largely hereditary). "Idiot" originally referred to "layman, person lacking professional skill", "person so mentally deficient as to be incapable of ordinary reasoning". Declining to take part in public life, such as democratic government of the polis (city state), was considered dishonorable. "Idiots" were seen as having bad judgment in public and political matters.

Step one is to recognize the problem, and that's compared to the seriousness we should have, we're all idiots. And we no longer can afford it, we have invented to many idiocy multipliers. If that hurts anyone's feelings I'm real sorry, but considering all those war profiteers we host I'd rather be able to look wise people and dead people in the eye, than the people who can't look those people in the eye. The world's a dirty, dark, and more than anything a foolish, petty and derpy place; but cleansing one's own "soul" is possible, to a degree.

Re: The Real Name Fallacy

#168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt this, since Facebook doesn't seem to care much about fantasy names. They get most interest data about you from within FB (what pages and posts you like etc.) and from pages across the internet you visit through like buttons embedded there (even without clicking them). So there's a lot of relevant meta data directly linked to your account and no need for them to know your real name.

Last time I tried to create an alt account they insisted on a phone number, though.

That's more about uniqueness than using your real name.

Spam and fraud accounts are a rather big problem, and this is one way of raising the barrier for creating those. And yeah, Facebook surely has other motivation too, like not having your metadata scattered across multiple accounts.

But I still don't see how knowing your real name would make a strong difference to them. I have quite a few FB friends that use obvious fantasy names (mostly for privacy reasons I think), and they don't seem to be banned or forced to change it.

Re: The Real Name Fallacy

#169
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And being anti-immigrant or anti-LGBT is their right; it's freedom of speech, which extends to freedom to hate. Lots of people hate Trump, that's their right to have. There's a line drawn when it becomes harassment or incitement to violence (then they veer towards becoming a terrorist organization).

I feel like today this freedom profits more to awful people than to the good of society.

That depends on what you consider to be the alternative to free speech. If you take it as "no speaking allowed ever", than freedom of speech benefits all equally. If you take the alternative to be "everyone I don't like isn't allowed to speak" then free speech disproportionately aids those you dislike.

Re: The Real Name Fallacy

#170
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And being anti-immigrant or anti-LGBT is their right; it's freedom of speech, which extends to freedom to hate. Lots of people hate Trump, that's their right to have. There's a line drawn when it becomes harassment or incitement to violence (then they veer towards becoming a terrorist organization).

I feel like today this freedom profits more to awful people than to the good of society.

That depends on what you consider to be the alternative to free speech. If you take it as "no speaking allowed ever", than freedom of speech benefits all equally. If you take the alternative to be "everyone I don't like isn't allowed to speak" then free speech disproportionately aids those you dislike.
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