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Bye Bye Emojis: Emacs Hates MacOS

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Re: Bye Bye Emojis: Emacs Hates MacOS

#161

Post by gshulegaard »

raverbashing wrote: post #110
gshulegaard wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like there is some lost perspective here. > But breaking font rendering? I would instead see at is making font rendering work equally across platforms. > Making scrolling work worse? Again, making scrolling work equally across platforms. > Not having some generic cosmetic effects like background transparency? Again, equally. I am more than a little surprised that this is so surprising to people...it seems rath…

Isn't it funny how it is the Mac OS people implementing these changes while the Linux people aren't coming up with equivalents? And yes, you can have a transparent terminal on Linux, make emoji work, have better scroll, etc

As Mac OS has a corporate entity behind it I don't think it is too surprising that Mac OS is in front...sort of.

> And yes, you can have a transparent terminal on Linux, make emoji work, have better scroll, etc

Well...sure, but it looks like all they did is remove the usage of Mac specific APIs from mainline:

https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2016-01/msg00...

So they aren't so much sabotaging Emacs when it is on Mac, they are just refusing to utilize platform specific APIs and tools. Again...see my first comment.

Re: Bye Bye Emojis: Emacs Hates MacOS

#162

Post by gshulegaard »

lilyball wrote: post #75
ploxiln wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Upstream GNU Emacs can no more be called "crippled" on macOS than it can be called "crippled" on linux, because on neither does it support multi-color emoticons. Maybe it seems "unfair" because macOS users could easily have the feature advantage over a free/libre OS user, but upstream GNU Emacs denies macOS the advantage. It is kind of funny. But also funny because GNU's adherence to their licensing philosophy means…

From the original article, Emacs had this feature, and then they removed it. That's crippling it. Deciding not to implement the feature in the first place, well, that's a reasonable decision given their desire for functionality to be cross-platform. But accepting it, then turning around and removing it later even though it was already implemented, that's just spite.

I don't know...from what I can tell it sounds like they removed the usage of Mac OS specific APIs from mainline::

https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2016-01/msg00...

Doesn't sound like crippling to me.

> Deciding not to implement the feature in the first place, well, that's a reasonable decision given their desire for functionality to be cross-platform. But accepting it, then turning around and removing it later even though it was already implemented, that's just spite.

Well this ignores the challenge of maintaining an open source project.

Re: Bye Bye Emojis: Emacs Hates MacOS

#163

Post by unescape »

Animats wrote: post #70

Does anyone really need colored emoji in Emacs? It's a programmer's editor.

In my day we did all our programming with uppercase letters. Code should be congruent to speech, which does not have letter case. Best practices dictate that identifiers and keywords should never differ only in case. Thus as a programmer I have no need for lower case letters to do my job.

Unfortunately the "normies" won this battle and now I have to deal with the complexity of pressing the Shift key all the time.

Re: Bye Bye Emojis: Emacs Hates MacOS

#164

Post by qwertyuiop924 »

Annatar wrote: post #159
qwertyuiop924 wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As somebody who does tolerate Stallman's nonsense, I can tell you why: It's because some of his software is really good. Like Emacs. I'm willing to bet that you're a VI user, but for us Emacs users, there really is no substitute. And if you want a Scheme package, Guile is a really good one (although it's not as efficient as some of the compiled schemes): Andy is doing a great job with it. There are other examples, li…

I'm willing to bet that you're a VI user, And you'd win that bet. Not even a vim user (except on Amiga), but straight vi. Why? Because vi was always there when I needed a text editor, and by learning vi, I automatically learned ed, sed, and ex. All of a sudden, I could write multi line sed programs.

Hey, I get it. I've always have the sneaking suspicion that VI users are way more productive at actually editing. But I know for a fact that they don't have the extensions that make editing dynamic languages (especially lisp) in Emacs so efficient. And there's no use learning another editor just to write C: What do you think I am, and IDE user?

Re: Bye Bye Emojis: Emacs Hates MacOS

#165

Post by jordigh »

jmcdiesel wrote: post #158
jordigh wrote: post #27

As one of GNU's flagship products, why shouldn't Emacs remind users that it is not in agreement with Apple's treatment of its users? GNU has an agenda, just like Apple does. Intel cripples icc for non-Intel CPUs, making it emit pessimised assembler. Apple makes sure that its hardware only works with other Apple products and that macOS can only be legally virtualised on Apple hardware. Everyone has an agenda. The diff…

Removing a feature that already existed is a slight against apple users, period. Work was done and committed to REDUCE the feature set for a group of users. There is no watering it down. It was done for rather childish reasons... and it makes no sense. It doesn't serve them. It doesn't serve anyone... But its what I expect from GNU, and the FSF hardcore community at large... you know, the PETA of software.

It's supposed to encourage people to bring the functionality to free OSes:

https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2015-12/msg01...

It's not like it's difficult to get Yamamoto's Emacs. So GNU's gesture is almost purely symbolic. If you don't care about getting a free OS and you like the conditions that macOS imposes upon you, you can easily use Emacs with macOS-only features.

Re: Bye Bye Emojis: Emacs Hates MacOS

#166

Post by jannotti »

gok wrote: post #22

"Therefore, when someone implements a useful new feature but only for a non-GNU system, we do not accept it that form." Users of non-GNU systems that use GNU software: the FSF is actively trying to make your life more difficult.

Yeah, kind of true. But Apple not letting others implement iMessage is pretty similar. (I'm sure I could come up with examples for almost every other tech company as well.)

I admit it feels weird that GNU is doing it, since the others can be explained by them wanting to make more money, and this can't. But I guess we should be as understanding of them trying to "win" the thing they want (software freedom, defined as they choose) as we are are of companies trying to "win" (money).

Re: Bye Bye Emojis: Emacs Hates MacOS

#167

Post by eridius »

gshulegaard wrote: post #162
lilyball wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the original article, Emacs had this feature, and then they removed it. That's crippling it. Deciding not to implement the feature in the first place, well, that's a reasonable decision given their desire for functionality to be cross-platform. But accepting it, then turning around and removing it later even though it was already implemented, that's just spite.

I don't know...from what I can tell it sounds like they removed the usage of Mac OS specific APIs from mainline:: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2016-01/msg00... Doesn't sound like crippling to me. > Deciding not to implement the feature in the first place, well, that's a reasonable decision given their desire for functionality to be cross-platform. But accepting it, then turning around and removing i…

> Well this ignores the challenge of maintaining an open source project.

Presumably Emacs is still using platform-specific APIs for the actual drawing of the text, yes? So properly supporting Mac font rendering should not adversely affect maintenance of Emacs in general, and similarly it should not be any more work to maintain the correct Mac font renderer as it is to maintain the incorrect Mac font renderer.

Re: Bye Bye Emojis: Emacs Hates MacOS

#168

Post by jmcdiesel »

jordigh wrote: post #165
jmcdiesel wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Removing a feature that already existed is a slight against apple users, period. Work was done and committed to REDUCE the feature set for a group of users. There is no watering it down. It was done for rather childish reasons... and it makes no sense. It doesn't serve them. It doesn't serve anyone... But its what I expect from GNU, and the FSF hardcore community at large... you know, the PETA of software.

It's supposed to encourage people to bring the functionality to free OSes: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2015-12/msg01... It's not like it's difficult to get Yamamoto's Emacs. So GNU's gesture is almost purely symbolic. If you don't care about getting a free OS and you like the conditions that macOS imposes upon you, you can easily use Emacs with macOS-only features.

"So GNU's gesture is almost purely symbolic"

Yeah... and pedantic. And childish. I support free software, I commit to open source projects, I love just about any form of Linux and I prefer OSS when its as good as proprietary (sometimes it is... like blender... and sometimes its crap in a bucket... like GIMP ...)

I think my aversion and disappointment comes from the fact that, like PETA, this group and the RMS brigade are very much the public face of a movement, but a movement that doesn't need a single face... but regardless, they are the what outsiders see, and when you turn every piece of software into a political statement, you end up hurting the cause.

There are people out there who will, through some sick twisting of the mind, treat animals poorly or not care about actual animal abuse because PETA has been the face of the animal cruelty movement (or GreenPeace, another great example of this effect, I'm sure it has a name) ... even though the cause is good, and there are good organizations (ASPCA)... the annoying, loud, politically charged reactionary groups like PETA, GreenPeace, GNU, RMS/FSF ... those groups turn people away from free software...

Maybe I'm ranting more about the politicalization of software... maybe its all tied together and one and the same... I just know that I've heard plenty of people say they don't use Linux because it doesn't have X application, or X drivers... when it really does, but the common distros don't include them because they aren't in-line with their political view of the situation...

Re: Bye Bye Emojis: Emacs Hates MacOS

#170

Post by nibbula »

Can you say: “U+1f4a9 U+1f32a”?

Those of you complaining about RMS's curmudgeonly demeanor, perhaps you would rather be using Apple iEmacs™ and “Microsoft Visual Emacs 2013”, with about the same freedom as you have with macOS / iOS, Android, TiVo, etc., which would play about as well together as ntfs on mac and hfs+ on linux? (or maybe that alternate universe would be Google Mosaic on FranklinOS?). While you're at it, you should thank the couterpointedly curmudgeonly jwz that Emacs is not tty only, and you have at least one viable non-corporate(-ish) browser choice.

Or you could just run emacs in your iTerm. Or you could get all the big software pimps (Apple, Microsoft, Google, Adobe, and maybe the W3C) to agree on a good (please not bitmaped) format, then patch Freetype, again. But I really hope it's already being worked on? I'm sure Emacs will work with it then.

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