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Scouts and guides provide ‘mental health boost for life’

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Scouts and guides provide ‘mental health boost for life’

#161

Post by arethuza »

bonzini wrote: post #130
arethuza wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being from the top left of Europe and having suffered the consequences of making bad assumptions about weather in Italy in winter ("It's Italy, must be warm") I'd always check. For example, you might quite easily freeze to death at the top of Mount Etna! (And/or burned to death).

With that username I would have said you are from Sicily...

Actually I got it from Neal Stephenson's Cryptonomicon - I had no idea Arethusa was a water nymph :-)

I do quite fancy visiting Sicily & Syracuse though!

Re: Scouts and guides provide ‘mental health boost for life’

#162

Post by bencollier49 »

caminante wrote: post #101
bencollier49 wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"the study in question made efforts to address these considerations" I'd argue that they didn't make enough efforts.

Are you assuming that or did you look at the research paper?

"We used variables collected at the appropriate sweeps of the NCDS to control for childhood factors which might affect...."

... snip ...

"Family aspiration was estimated from parents desire that their child leaves school at the minimum age, asked at age 11."

There was no judge of parental involvement beyond whether parents had a desire for their children to go to university or get A-Levels.

Re: Scouts and guides provide ‘mental health boost for life’

#163

Post by madaxe_again »

redcap wrote: post #152
madaxe_again wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what I was going to say - suspect this stems from having parents or guardians who cared enough to get you involved in such an activity, and the environment that suggests, rather than scouting directly.

There's a lot to be said for going for a 3-day hike in the wilderness, even if you're accompanied by a parent. Going with a scout group usually means that you wont be relying on the parent as you want to stay as a member of the group of people your own age. You'll start to feel tired and sore at some stage, and it may start to rain. But if you've prepared properly (and the scout motto is "be prepared"), then you shou…

It's true - but I scouted for years and still turned out neurotic and anxious - but I had dismissive parents who I only spent a few months or so with throughout my childhood.

Re: Scouts and guides provide ‘mental health boost for life’

#164

Post by redcalx »

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #154
redcalx wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeh. The paper claims to have controlled for this by comparing against kids in other groups, I suspect that might not be a very good control. E.g. if your daughter went on to join a different type of group that she did fit in with better, then that's a very clear selection bias. If I'm understanding correctly their control assumes kids just randomly select a group then stick with it.

what about kids who don't do _any_ group

It looks like they weren't included in the study because the authors deemed that they were subject to selection bias (correctly in my view).

Re: Scouts and guides provide ‘mental health boost for life’

#165

Post by redcalx »

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #154
redcalx wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeh. The paper claims to have controlled for this by comparing against kids in other groups, I suspect that might not be a very good control. E.g. if your daughter went on to join a different type of group that she did fit in with better, then that's a very clear selection bias. If I'm understanding correctly their control assumes kids just randomly select a group then stick with it.

what about kids who don't do _any_ group

Consider this; if those kids that would normally avoid scouts/guide were now forced to go because their parents saw reports of this study, then the effects could very well be negative, in turn cancelling out or even reversing the reported overall beneficial effects.

Re: Scouts and guides provide ‘mental health boost for life’

#166

Post by toomanybeersies »

bootload wrote: post #141
toomanybeersies wrote: post #4

I was in scouts and cadets here in New Zealand when I was a teenager and continue to spend a fair amount of time in the outdoors (I also did Outward Bound when I was 16), and I can definitely relate to the researcher's findings. When you're 2 days walk from civilisation, it's pissing down with rain, and you're cold, wet, hungry, and tired, you get a different perspective on life and the "soft" challenges that you fac…

"When you're 2 days walk from civilisation, it's pissing down with rain, and you're cold, wet, hungry, and tired, you get a different perspective on life and the "soft" challenges that you face in life back home." Milford?

Pretty much anywhere in New Zealand you can be 2 days walk from civilisation.

Re: Scouts and guides provide ‘mental health boost for life’

#167

Post by bediger4000 »

wtallis wrote: post #153
bediger4000 wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Senior Patrol Leader, Junior Assistance Scout master, what's the difference, really? If a use a military, rather than a business metaphor, a boy can be a non-commissioned officer at best, not even a lieutenant.

The point that you are refusing to understand is that what you describe and apparently experienced is at most a common failure mode. It is not what the program is intended to be, and it is not representative of a typical troop with properly trained adult leadership. I'm sorry you had an asshole scoutmaster who couldn't internalize even the first half hour of the training he was supposed to receive before serving in t…

I don't think I'm making my point, or you're deliberately mis-reading me. I had at least decent scoutmasters, and some were very good. I was an Eagle scout. I worked 3 summers at Great Rivers Council's Camp Thunderbird. I worked 3 summers at Philmont Scout Ranch, as a Range and at Cimmaroncito. I was in the Order of the Arrow. I've seen more scouts and scoutmasters in more situations than almost everyone. Most scoutmasters are good, a few are very good, and virtually all of them are trying hard.

I guess I should say that I gained a lot from Scouting, and Scoutmasters. Hopefully, I passed on some knowledge to the Scouts I interacted with as a camp staff member. Hopefully those Scouts gained a lot from their experiences. But all of that was outside the bounds of the Patrol Method, and at least secondary to it. The true message of Scouting appears to be "know your place". The "learn your place, and get better at things to serve the upper crust" is a problem built into Scouting at its very beginning, and imbues it to this day.

Re: Scouts and guides provide ‘mental health boost for life’

#168

Post by cmrdporcupine »

redcalx wrote: post #164
cmrdporcupine wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what about kids who don't do _any_ group

It looks like they weren't included in the study because the authors deemed that they were subject to selection bias (correctly in my view).

1. Define mental health in terms of adherence to the mean. 2. Find a group where adherence to the mean is mandatory in order to continue in the group. 3. Success, the group makes you mentally healthy!

Re: Scouts and guides provide ‘mental health boost for life’

#169

Post by objectivistbrit »

gwern wrote: post #98
Artoemius wrote: post #3

It might be one of the cases where correlation doesn't imply causation. For an objective study, we would need to assign children to groups randomly. Otherwise, we can miss various obscure selection effects. (For example, if children who are more likely to be scouts, are also likely to be from a particular socioeconomic background).

Definitely. This is exactly the sort of study you strongly expect the causal conclusion to not obtain and disappear in a randomized study/genetically-sensitive design (anxiety and other mental issues are highly heritable, of course), right up there with such classic sociology non-results as 'children whose fathers leave do worse' or 'children who experience corporal punishment have more behavioral problems' or 'child…

A gwern classic - the second sentence of this wall of text contains 112 words and 14 verbs. I think your tendency to include tons of parenthetical remarks, caveats and every example you can think of, confuses the reader and makes it hard to figure out your essential point.

Re: Scouts and guides provide ‘mental health boost for life’

#170

Post by mattkrause »

TorKlingberg wrote: post #16
Artoemius wrote: post #3

It might be one of the cases where correlation doesn't imply causation. For an objective study, we would need to assign children to groups randomly. Otherwise, we can miss various obscure selection effects. (For example, if children who are more likely to be scouts, are also likely to be from a particular socioeconomic background).

They did try to compensate for such things, but I always wonder if studies can compensate enough. Two households with the same income can have very different socioeconomic status, which may influence both mental health and the amount of scouting.

They're not using household income though--they're using a score (actually, a pair of scores) that are supposed to capture "class".
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