General questions about the Airbnb Community Commitment • Hacker News Board

Re: General questions about the Airbnb Community Commitment

#161

Post by jamiesonbecker » Sat, Oct 29, 2016, 3:51 PM UTC

csallen wrote: post #135

jacquesm wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the Airbnb case that would be a very thin bit of ice to skate on but these cases usually hinge on a large number of things that can be tested and this would be one of those things. Other such items are your ability to set your own schedule, your own prices and so on.

Yeah, I don't disagree with you. Just disagree with the parent who implied that Airbnb's new rules are sufficient for classifying landlords as employees. ("If AirBnB is able to dictate what it's landlords can and can't do that makes them disguised employees") They're not even close to sufficient.

> Just disagree with the parent who implied that Airbnb's new rules are sufficient for classifying landlords as employees. ("If AirBnB is able to dictate what it's landlords can and can't do that makes them disguised employees")

"The general rule is that an individual is an independent contractor if the payer has the right to control or direct only the result of the work and not what will be done and how it will be done." IRS[1]

To your point, it is somewhat more complicated than that, and the IRS used to have a 20 factor test (now an 11 factor test) but it can basically be boiled down to: if AirBNB can specify HOW the services shall be rendered in detail, instead of simply the results or when they will be delivered, then the IRS can re-classify those contractors as employees.

In practice, and even though I think AirBNB is not in the moral right place here, I can't imagine IRS rules being applied in circumstances like this (i.e., where a contractor is actually the one doing the selling in someone else's marketplace.) In other words, AirBNB, Amazon, or Ebay vendors can sell things according to the marketplace's strict rules (which specify HOW) without being re-classified. If I was AirBNB, I'd argue that I was the marketplace and not the merchant of record for the items (e.g. insert the seller name into the credit card receipt). This is a tricky thing, though.. who is liable for a harmful item sold at Walmart -- Walmart, the manufacturer, or both? We all know the answer to that.

IANAL and I'd appreciate correction or expansion from tax/employment law lawyers.

1. https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employe...

Re: General questions about the Airbnb Community Commitment

#162

Post by jacquesm » Sat, Oct 29, 2016, 3:54 PM UTC

jamiesonbecker wrote: post #161

csallen wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I don't disagree with you. Just disagree with the parent who implied that Airbnb's new rules are sufficient for classifying landlords as employees. ("If AirBnB is able to dictate what it's landlords can and can't do that makes them disguised employees") They're not even close to sufficient.

> Just disagree with the parent who implied that Airbnb's new rules are sufficient for classifying landlords as employees. ("If AirBnB is able to dictate what it's landlords can and can't do that makes them disguised employees") "The general rule is that an individual is an independent contractor if the payer has the right to control or direct only the result of the work and not what will be done and how it will be d…

Airbnb actually is the merchant of record for all of their credit card transactions.

Re: General questions about the Airbnb Community Commitment

#163

Post by jamiesonbecker » Sat, Oct 29, 2016, 3:55 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #162

jamiesonbecker wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Just disagree with the parent who implied that Airbnb's new rules are sufficient for classifying landlords as employees. ("If AirBnB is able to dictate what it's landlords can and can't do that makes them disguised employees") "The general rule is that an individual is an independent contractor if the payer has the right to control or direct only the result of the work and not what will be done and how it will be d…

Airbnb actually is the merchant of record for all of their credit card transactions.

Good point. That seems to put them on the line, but I think they've been fighting that they are not liable for their sellers' actions.. it's hard to have it both ways.

Re: General questions about the Airbnb Community Commitment

#164

Post by Kliment » Sat, Oct 29, 2016, 3:56 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #63

aikah wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "What if I decline the commitment?", It doesn't explain what happens if one accepts the commitment and still discriminates. > Seems pretty clear: You can't discriminate, if you do we terminate your account at our discretion. That's not what the text says. The text basically says : "If you don't answer Yes to the commitment, we will terminates your account". It doesn't say "if you actually do discriminate we will te…

It would be quite nice to see how they intend to prove that a host discriminated.

Since they can unilaterally suspend accounts for any or no reason already, I don't expect they think they need to prove anything.

Re: General questions about the Airbnb Community Commitment

#165

Post by fma » Sat, Oct 29, 2016, 3:57 PM UTC

matthewowen wrote: post #134

fma wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The protected class citizens have a line drawn somewhere. The federal courts agree for roommates, you can discriminate because a roommate is a more intimate relationship than selling a house or renting out a house. Since AirBnB is supposedly sharing...I don't see how that's different from getting roommates. They would have to reclassify their whole stance on being about "sharing economy" and admit they are more for r…

They already classify properties as shared room vs private room vs entire place, so this isn't an issue.

Their commitment states "we’re asking everyone"...So that includes people who are doing shared rooms.

Re: General questions about the Airbnb Community Commitment

#166

Post by jacquesm » Sat, Oct 29, 2016, 3:59 PM UTC

foldr wrote: post #160

jacquesm wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, if it happens immediately. But most likely they'll be doing it for a long time, possibly years before something will be done about it and more often than not those cases will involve Airbnb getting bad press (which is what gave rise to this whole thing in the first place): http://www.cnbc.com/2016/05/20/airbnb-sued-for-allegedly-ign... Or did you think they came up with this because they thought it was a good id…

No-one expects this policy to be enforced completely successfully, but no law or rule against discrimination ever is. I see no reason why it could not make a positive difference. As to your final question, why so cynical? I imagine Airbnb came up with this when they recognized that discriminatory behavior by hosts was a serious problem. I doubt that Airbnb are secretly in favor of racism and doing this for some other…

> As to your final question, why so cynical?

Past and present Airbnb behavior is - to use light terms - less than ethical.

> I imagine Airbnb came up with this when they recognized that discriminatory behavior by hosts was a serious problem.

But they only chose to act when it became a matter of negative press.

> I doubt that Airbnb are secretly in favor of racism and doing this for some other reason.

They don't have to be 'secretly in favor of it' for them to condone it because it affects their bottom line one way or the other, presumably they've done the math and they now figure that further run-ins with the press and the law would work against them.

Really, when it comes to the likes of Airbnb, Uber, Facebook and so on I've over time come to realize that they are deeply un-ethical companies that couldn't care less about what the 'right' thing to do is, they just want to maintain their leadership position and to make as much money as possible. Ethics mean nothing to them.

Re: General questions about the Airbnb Community Commitment

#167

Post by foldr » Sat, Oct 29, 2016, 4:01 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #166

foldr wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No-one expects this policy to be enforced completely successfully, but no law or rule against discrimination ever is. I see no reason why it could not make a positive difference. As to your final question, why so cynical? I imagine Airbnb came up with this when they recognized that discriminatory behavior by hosts was a serious problem. I doubt that Airbnb are secretly in favor of racism and doing this for some other…

> As to your final question, why so cynical? Past and present Airbnb behavior is - to use light terms - less than ethical. > I imagine Airbnb came up with this when they recognized that discriminatory behavior by hosts was a serious problem. But they only chose to act when it became a matter of negative press. > I doubt that Airbnb are secretly in favor of racism and doing this for some other reason. They don't have…

> Really, when it comes to the likes of Airbnb, Uber, Facebook and so on I've over time come to realize that they are deeply un-ethical companies that couldn't care less about what the 'right' thing to do is, they just want to maintain their leadership position and to make as much money as possible. Ethics mean nothing to them.

Right, so you have no specific knowledge of what is going on here. You just have a general policy of assuming the worst. Aka cynicism.

Re: General questions about the Airbnb Community Commitment

#168

Post by jacquesm » Sat, Oct 29, 2016, 4:02 PM UTC

jamiesonbecker wrote: post #163

jacquesm wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Airbnb actually is the merchant of record for all of their credit card transactions.

Good point. That seems to put them on the line, but I think they've been fighting that they are not liable for their sellers' actions.. it's hard to have it both ways.

Having it both ways is exactly what these companies are all about. Being a taxi company without actually being a taxi company, being a hotel company without actually running a hotel and so on.

Flaunt the law, then hide behind it when it suits them.

Re: General questions about the Airbnb Community Commitment

#169

Post by foldr » Sat, Oct 29, 2016, 4:06 PM UTC

Lucadg wrote: post #109

hannob wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would make sense is to say "we only accept campers that are quiet at night - and we'll throw them out of they don't comply and disturb other people's sleep". What you did is racism. Now ever if your statistics were true (I doubt you properly measured that) it simply doesn't matter. Even if 90% of people from some region are noisy at night that doesn't justify rejecting the other 10%.

I think the decision to pre-filter was based on the fact that kicking someone out was extremely difficult. Police had to be involved or some really bad thing had to happen. So the approach "ok we let anyone in, these are the rules, if you don't respect them you are out" is for sure more fair but it just wouldn't work. Theory vs Reality. And when you have 2000 people in a tight space you kind of want to avoid these si…

>I'm Italian and if you won't let me into your crystal shop because I wave too much my hands when I talk and you're afraid I'll break something (I personally don't wave hands), I'll understand. I will be angry sure, but not with you: with the other hand waving italians.

Are you sure you wouldn't be annoyed if this actually happened? I find that a bit difficult to believe. Say, you walk into a cafe and politely order an espresso, and then the owner kicks you out because you're Italian.

Re: General questions about the Airbnb Community Commitment

#170

Post by jacquesm » Sat, Oct 29, 2016, 4:06 PM UTC

foldr wrote: post #167

jacquesm wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As to your final question, why so cynical? Past and present Airbnb behavior is - to use light terms - less than ethical. > I imagine Airbnb came up with this when they recognized that discriminatory behavior by hosts was a serious problem. But they only chose to act when it became a matter of negative press. > I doubt that Airbnb are secretly in favor of racism and doing this for some other reason. They don't have…

> Really, when it comes to the likes of Airbnb, Uber, Facebook and so on I've over time come to realize that they are deeply un-ethical companies that couldn't care less about what the 'right' thing to do is, they just want to maintain their leadership position and to make as much money as possible. Ethics mean nothing to them. Right, so you have no specific knowledge of what is going on here. You just have a general…

> Right, so you have no specific knowledge of what is going on here. You just have a general policy of assuming the worst. Aka cynicism.

It's cynicism when applied to companies about which you have no datapoints, we have plenty of datapoints about those three mentioned above.

Airbnb would have to significantly change their ways before I would be ready to see them as an ethical operator, I've outlined two things they could do to really combat racism, but I'll bet you they will never do this because it would cut into their bottom line.

See, being an ethical company always cuts into the bottom line, there is almost always more money to be made by being unethical.