American Children Are Drowning in Self-Esteem • Hacker News Board

Re: American Children Are Drowning in Self-Esteem

#161

Post by m_mueller » Fri, Oct 28, 2016, 1:01 PM UTC

gutnor wrote: post #117

squeaky-clean wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your friend was learning to code, and wrote a tetris clone, would you congratulate them on their first major project, or would you critique their sloppy code? They had to develop and live with that codebase, maybe for several days or more. They're probably aware of some things that suck about it, but had to stick with it (otherwise you never finish). Having someone criticize your code, variable names, lack of patt…

There is a lot of assumption in this discussion like there is nothing between blind encouragement and stark criticism. You want you son/friend to learn to code and his first project is copy-pasta from a book. Fantastic. Actually doing something is by far the number 1 challenge people never overcome. Second project is also copy-pasta, that's only fantastic if you son/friend learn to be a typist. He and You both know h…

Exactly. Being supportive is not the same as putting everything they do on a pedestal and never have any constructive criticism ever. It's all about thr situation and how you frame it.

Re: American Children Are Drowning in Self-Esteem

#162

Post by m_mueller » Fri, Oct 28, 2016, 1:09 PM UTC

kasey_junk wrote: post #86

DavidAdams wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Americans have a reputation for saying things like "let's do lunch sometime" as a sort of vague statement of agreeableness and intention to stay in contact, whereas, let's say, Swedish people would consider that to be a straightforward intention to book a lunch date.

> Swedish people would consider that to be a straightforward intention to book a lunch date I don't know Swedish from Martian, but I'm surprised the language doesn't have "pleasantries". They seem near universal. I know that I (as an American) have had uncomfortable experiences with translated Chinese for instance, assuming someone was asking impertinent questions when it was really just them being polite.

I'm Swiss and I think it's kind of the same thing. Don't look there for pleasantries. Hey Buddy! Hmm why iz zhat strange person calling me a 'Buddy', I don't even know him!

I think most germanic languages are just much more focused on information content. On the other hand I can get into deep discussions with strangers, even disagreeing with each other, but not get emotional in any way, actually even enjoying the exchange. With Americans I feel there's a mountain of smalltalk and pleasantries to conquer until you can start being sincere. However that might also just me not understanding the culture enough to do that correctly.

Re: American Children Are Drowning in Self-Esteem

#163

Post by gsg21 » Fri, Oct 28, 2016, 1:16 PM UTC

There's a great book called "The Collapse of Parenting" [1] that talks about this. It obviously expands on these ideas, but here are a few notes: - Many parents confuse self-esteem with courage - To be courageous means to recognize the risks and your own limitations, but you find the resolve to move forward anyway. Bloated self-esteem means you aren't aware of your deficiencies - The right kind of humility means you recognize your own shortcomings and you are better prepared to take risks

[1] https://www.amazon.com/Collapse-Parenting-Hurt-Treat-Grown-U...

Re: American Children Are Drowning in Self-Esteem

#164

Post by BeetleB » Fri, Oct 28, 2016, 1:58 PM UTC

roel_v wrote: post #131

BeetleB wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Raising the children is supporting them, and helping them get over the fear of performing publicly (or whatever). It's not their job to be the technical coach of whatever they want to learn. Would you apply the same to, say, mathematics? Or chemistry? Or programming? Do you think the parents should not give their kids feedback on these subjects, and instead leave it to the teacher (aka technical coach)?

Largely, yes. There can be only a very small amount of subjects of which I would know more than a professional anyway. So no, a part of the job of being a parent is to show self-restraint when you feel that impulse to hyper-correct your child on every small mistake they make. Look at it this way: you're starting a new job. A very stressful one, where you have to learn a bunch of new things, long days, and not just le…

>Look at it this way: you're starting a new job. A very stressful one, where you have to learn a bunch of new things, long days, and not just learning one thing - you're learning dozens of subject every day.

I think that's the problem right there. When I was in school, the day was not long nor was it stressful. I suppose I'm inclined to agree with you that if the above circumstances are true, a parent should not behave that way. However, if those circumstances are true, and my kid seems at least average or above, I'd as a parent do some hard thinking and consider finding another school for him.

One thing I learned in all of my education: You may learn a lot when you are overloaded, but you learn nothing well. Not just at their level, but at university.

I'm good at a bunch of subjects - likely much better than the teacher (math, physics, etc). If school is so stressful that my kid cannot learn these well, and there is no room for help from me, then it's a bad school.

Re: American Children Are Drowning in Self-Esteem

#165

Post by ljw1001 » Fri, Oct 28, 2016, 2:22 PM UTC

sp332 wrote: post #4

If self-esteem is so high, why is suicide so common? Giving someone self-esteem doesn't mean letting them whine all the time. Your swimming instructors saying “C’mon dude, stop complaining, let’s get on with it!” IS giving the kid self-esteem! Teaching many ways to add is important because not all kids are going to be able to learn the same way at that age. Different methods are going to "click" for different student…

Yeah, my personal experience with teens is that they are anxious and full of self-doubt. I certainly don't see an excess of self-esteem. I wonder how much hard-science there is on the harmfulness of praise

Re: American Children Are Drowning in Self-Esteem

#166

Post by gerbilly » Fri, Oct 28, 2016, 2:24 PM UTC

NTDF9 wrote: post #22

What I've noticed common among a lot of Americans is a fear/inhibition of speaking the truth, mostly to not have a confrontation. I witnessed an example of this in a music performance of a teen rock band. In this performance, the band sucked overall. The guitarist didn't know what he was doing. But everybody (guardians, parents, teachers, friends) just keep saying, "Great performance brah, awesome shit, good going gu…

Do you actually think the kids don't know where they screwed up their parts?

And even if they didn't know, right after the show isn't the time to mention mistakes.

It's hard enough to get up in front of people to speak, much less perform, so I think the situation you describe, if followed later by a discussion on what to improve and work on, is entirely appropriate.

Did you know that Steve Jones, the guitarist from the sex pistols, had to have another guitarist play behind a curtain for him for the first few shows? It didn't stop the band from changing popular music, and it didn't stop him from developing a very tight technique.[1]

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbSGR846nAg

Re: American Children Are Drowning in Self-Esteem

#167

Post by ljw1001 » Fri, Oct 28, 2016, 2:24 PM UTC

sien wrote: post #79

sp332 wrote: post #4

If self-esteem is so high, why is suicide so common? Giving someone self-esteem doesn't mean letting them whine all the time. Your swimming instructors saying “C’mon dude, stop complaining, let’s get on with it!” IS giving the kid self-esteem! Teaching many ways to add is important because not all kids are going to be able to learn the same way at that age. Different methods are going to "click" for different student…

The US is #30 on world suicide lists. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_r... South Korea and Japan are much higher. Also, given the US's gun laws presumably suicide is often more successfully completed in the US than in other places. Given this, the US suicide rate isn't comparatively that high.

from what i know about Japanese culture, they are not overwhelming their children with unnecessary praise. Korea also.

Re: American Children Are Drowning in Self-Esteem

#168

Post by gerbilly » Fri, Oct 28, 2016, 2:31 PM UTC

agentgt wrote: post #7

It is ironic the author uses a swimming metaphor: "If their instructors had focused on making them feel good about swimming, instead of on making them swim, they could have drowned." Swimming is almost natural. Most mammals can swim with out training (even my cat knew how to swim). Fear on the other hand is what leads to drowning. You don't need formal training in swimming to stay a float. You need to not be afraid o…

Most quadrupeds can swim because for them 'walking' in deep water is nearly the right way to swim.

Apes can't swim for the most part, and often drown. We are apes.

Re: American Children Are Drowning in Self-Esteem

#169

Post by Balgair » Fri, Oct 28, 2016, 4:56 PM UTC

0xcde4c3db wrote: post #130

Balgair wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Facebook. Suicide is considered 'contagious'. Before social media (1970) the 'contagiousness' (to really muddle a complex issue) was ~6. Meaning that each suicide 'affected' 6 other young people deeply, seriously disrupted their life, or left them feeling suicidal as well. Typically this was only close friends and family. Now, as we are all more connected, we see that a single suicide affects more people and more qui…

> If you are feeling suicidal, there are many resources available. There are resources readily available to stop you killing yourself right now . After that the prospects for help tend to dry up pretty quickly until you boil down to the next crisis. Hotlines are a fine thing to have and to promote, but they're not nearly enough.

Well I'm sorry for trying to help others out. What are good resources then? Just HN comments criticizing others for not being up to some random's standards.

Re: American Children Are Drowning in Self-Esteem

#170

Post by reflexive » Sat, Oct 29, 2016, 12:34 AM UTC

Phr0ztByte wrote: post #160

reflexive wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe this is part of why a lot more popular bands come from the US than from Europe? Not to be glib, but when I lived in Europe I was shocked at how many unknown American bands they would fly out to play at tiny venues (bars, "underground" clubs) every weekend. I asked, don't you have your own unknown bands that rehearse in garages and dorm rooms? It turns out: not so much, not nearly to the level that this exists i…

Band popularity has a lot to do with marketing. If you are looking at the size of European countries they have just as many influential artists as the US. UK and Sweden in particular.

Can you recommend any Swedish acts? I thought of Junior Senior and Röyksopp but it turns out they're Danish and Norwegian.