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How it feels to learn JavaScript in 2016

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Re: How it feels to learn JavaScript in 2016

#161

Post by reitanqild »

scottmf wrote: post #96
mattmanser wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny, but it's not quite that complex. I'm using React/Redux/Sagas/Webpack/etc. for the client, and Express (with ES6 and what have you) Funny, but that sounds like the very definition of complex. I particularly love the "etc." and "what have you" because your stack is so complex you can't even be bothered to type them all out.

I don't see it as too different from "I'm using Rails, ActiveRecord, Sprockets, Ruby 2, CoffeeScript, etc". Which stack do you prefer to use?

JavaEE? Or spring boot?

Re: How it feels to learn JavaScript in 2016

#162

Post by marrs »

lloyd-christmas wrote: post #129
mathgeek wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been to more than one interview where I defaulted to jQuery and was immediately disqualified, based on the looks on the interviewers' faces. As a ruby developer, it certainly feels like keeping up-to-date on JS takes more work than the other 90% of languages that I'm familiar with.

Interview question: "iterate over an array": angular.forEach([1,2,3] ... $.each([ 1, 2, 3 ], ... [1,2,3].forEach(... One of these things is not like the other. I hire people that know javascript, not ones that only know the tool we use. The tool we use today may not be the tool we use 6 months from now. I've never asked a javascript question that required framework knowledge unless it was explicitly about concepts of…

I have to say, this strikes me as an odd way of filtering out bad developers. jQuery is a time-saving library.

It seems like you're presuming that they must lack proficiency in the DOM if they're choosing to use jQuery. Perhaps you're trying to say you want to see them demonstrate that they're not just copy/paste coders.

Given your code example above, I wouldn't want a candidate to know the difference between each `forEach` method, but I would expect them to know that each provides a means of iterating over a set of values.

Re: How it feels to learn JavaScript in 2016

#163

Post by jdauriemma »

How it feels to learn parallel parking in 2016

"I want to parallel park in that parking space."

You'll need a car first.

"When I was a kid I just walked into the parking spaces."

Yeah, but that's not really parallel parking, you were just walking into a parking space.

"Oh ok. So I'll get a car then."

Well, it's not that simple, you have to actually get inside the car in order to parallel park.

"What? Can't I just push the car?"

No way! First you have to unlock the car, start it and put it in gear.

"Oh. OK, how do I do that?"

First take out your key.

"What's that?"

It's a small attachment that should have come with your car. Then press the unlock button.

"I unlocked it and am sitting in the seat. Ready to park?

"Not quite. first, you need to put the key in the ignition"

What is an ignition?

"It's the small hole on the side of the steering wheel. Now turn it. No, the other way.

"OK, let's parallel park!"

Hold on now, you need to adjust your seat, rearview mirrors and side view mirrors to ensure that you can drive safely.

"But I don't want to drive, I just want to parallel park!"

It doesn't work like that.

"Fine. How do I get these side view mirrors to adjust?"

Well, first you have to select which mirror you want using the switch to your left, then push the directional arrows until it's at the correct angle.

"How do I know what the correct angle is?"

There are lots of opinions about this, just search Stack Overflow.

"This seems like a good angle. Let's park!"

Hold your horses, first you have to put the car in Drive...

...

Some things that we take for granted as simple really aren't and never have been. Within a generation the above will be completely outdated knowledge and you'll get a car from point A to point B using an app, with its own complexities and absurdities at which we can poke fun in blog posts.

Re: How it feels to learn JavaScript in 2016

#164

Post by tomatsu »

lloyd-christmas wrote: post #129
mathgeek wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been to more than one interview where I defaulted to jQuery and was immediately disqualified, based on the looks on the interviewers' faces. As a ruby developer, it certainly feels like keeping up-to-date on JS takes more work than the other 90% of languages that I'm familiar with.

Interview question: "iterate over an array": angular.forEach([1,2,3] ... $.each([ 1, 2, 3 ], ... [1,2,3].forEach(... One of these things is not like the other. I hire people that know javascript, not ones that only know the tool we use. The tool we use today may not be the tool we use 6 months from now. I've never asked a javascript question that required framework knowledge unless it was explicitly about concepts of…

> Interview question: "iterate over an array":

  for(let thing of things) {...}
forEach only obfuscates the imperative nature of your loop.

Re: How it feels to learn JavaScript in 2016

#165

Post by grosbisou »

enraged_camel wrote: post #82
mehwoot wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even for a simple app that it'd take me 20 - 30 hours If your entire job is doing small apps that take a week of work, these tools are not much better than the previous generation (personally I'd use Rails but that's just one generation on from PHP/MySQL). Especially when you add in the cost of non uniformity if you let everyone choose their own slightly different flavour of the innumerable javascript tools available…

Sorry, I'm confused: what do you mean by "migrated a 5 year old codebase from Rails to React"? What are you using as your backend?

Maybe they hardcoded the data in the views. Might be the cool way to do it soon enough.

Re: How it feels to learn JavaScript in 2016

#166

Post by dasil003 »

lloyd-christmas wrote: post #129
mathgeek wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been to more than one interview where I defaulted to jQuery and was immediately disqualified, based on the looks on the interviewers' faces. As a ruby developer, it certainly feels like keeping up-to-date on JS takes more work than the other 90% of languages that I'm familiar with.

Interview question: "iterate over an array": angular.forEach([1,2,3] ... $.each([ 1, 2, 3 ], ... [1,2,3].forEach(... One of these things is not like the other. I hire people that know javascript, not ones that only know the tool we use. The tool we use today may not be the tool we use 6 months from now. I've never asked a javascript question that required framework knowledge unless it was explicitly about concepts of…

> Walking through people's code demonstrates whether or not they default to other people's solutions than their own.

Sorry, what does this even mean? When we consider it bad to use an external solution we call it Introducing Unnecessary Dependencies, when we consider it good to use an external solution we call it Not Reinventing The Wheel.

What you're doing here is fetishizing some arbitrary knowledge that you've set up as a litmus test. I've hired probably close to a hundred engineers by this point in my career, and I have to say, unless you are hiring for specialists to fill a very specific purpose, the only test that matters is Joel Spolsky's smart-and-gets-things-done test. There are plenty of web developers out there who only ever used jQuery and thus never learned javascript properly—that says nothing about their talent. There is a good portion of them who, upon being told, "we don't use jQuery here, just raw javascript" will learn and be better at it than you in a couple months. Even more importantly, any good engineer is going to have a lot experience which you don't have, and which to you is an unknown unknown. The best team is made up of diverse backgrounds and experience, not a bunch of people who managed to pass through a series of arbitrary knowledge gates.

Re: How it feels to learn JavaScript in 2016

#167

Post by clifanatic »

lloyd-christmas wrote: post #131
kraftman wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what do you do about jobs asking for Angular/React experience? Just tell them you have none because you haven't needed to use them yet? Or avoid those jobs? (There are a lot)

Demonstrate you know fundamental javascript. I hire "I know javascript" over "I know angular".

Unfortunately for OP, you're in a very small minority.

Re: How it feels to learn JavaScript in 2016

#168

Post by clifanatic »

TamDenholm wrote: post #6

I'm a web dev, been doing this 11 years. But i totally feel past it, granted i code less and less nowadays so i havent kept up with new technologies. I've hired people that are much better at web dev than me and let them accomplish a task with pretty much whatever tech they want to use, because i believe you shouldn't constrict a developer if you dont have to. Even for a simple app that it'd take me 20 - 30 hours for…

> the tendency is to pull in Angular, Laravel, gulp or grunt, composer dependencies and a whole host of code for doing something really simple.

First experience with Resume Driven Development?

Re: How it feels to learn JavaScript in 2016

#169

Post by vonmoltke »

wccrawford wrote: post #79
kraftman wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what do you do about jobs asking for Angular/React experience? Just tell them you have none because you haven't needed to use them yet? Or avoid those jobs? (There are a lot)

I'm not the person you replied to, but I'd recommend learning them well enough to know their strengths, and then telling the interviewer that's what you did. If you have any experience in other front end frameworks, that'll usually be enough to get you through that part of the interview anyhow.

That's if you get the interview. This is my problem with most of this kind of advice. All the learning in the world won't help if they ignore your resume because your last job didn't us the same technologies they do.

Re: How it feels to learn JavaScript in 2016

#170

Post by dasil003 »

snlacks wrote: post #125
ryanSrich wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> migrated a 5 year old codebase from Rails to React This statement doesn't make sense to me, and is one of the points of the article. React is a view layer. That's it. So you wouldn't migrate from Rails to React. You'd migrate Rails to React + Relay + Webpack + etc. On top of all of that you then have to decide if you're sticking with Rails for your API or if you're switching over your entire back end as well. The d…

It makes sense to me. The previous generations had pages that had more rendering on the server and "forms." Now, it's single page applications hitting REST end points. So before, you had complex models, tightly bound back-end controllers, sending data to a view. Now, you have simpler APIs on the server, you arrange and manage the data in the browser, getting more data as needed.

Rails is perfectly well suited to serve an API. In fact I believe it was the first to define off the shelf RESTful conventions for an entire controller and all verbs by default back ~2007 if I recall.

http://edgeguides.rubyonrails.org/api_app.html

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