Live data from Hacker News

ORWL – The first open source, physically secure computer

crowdsupply.com

161–170 of 195 posts

Re: ORWL – The first open source, physically secure computer

#161
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you guys succeed, you should think about making phones.

We are actually talking about this. Thanks for your interest.

If I can get a word in on this subject, I'd like to say this:

If Android is stripped completely back to minimum and rebuilt fully from source, it's arguably a trustworthy platform, but who has the time to basically do the equivalent of Gentoo on their phone, potentially weekly?

Even if the binary blob problem was miraculously solved, a rooted android device is basically a sitting duck (https://www.reddit.com/r/netsec/comments/3hr9f0/i_am_john_mc...), but an unrooted device isn't sufficiently hackable (flexible) to ensure its continued security (ie, unrooted + depending on a central service for Android updates = no thanks).

To me, I personally don't equate "Android" with "secure" in any way shape or form; I consider the platform practicably unsecurable.

I was just doing a bit of thinking. How about: use the 100MHz secure processor to run Linux or some another open-source lightweight kernel, and add a second CPU (something run-of-the-mill but decent, 1GHz+) that the first one can switch on and off. Both CPUs can see the GPU (running a low-res display, to make it easier - and cheaper), controlled only using open drivers, and the CPUs arbitrate for who has control of the GPU.

I see two software use cases for such a model.

First, you could use the 100MHz secure processor to actually run the phone. The resulting UI would be pretty basic, but open and verifiably secure (this is not currently possible with any other device AFAIK, and would get you a noteworthy demographic). You could use the 1GHz+ secondary CPU in lieu of hardware GPU decode - as in, you setup the fast CPU with libx265 on a unikernel, and feed it data via DMA. That sidesteps the blob problem, and lets people securely chat via/watch video.

Second, you could use the secure processor to do basic system tasks (again, providing a minimal UI), and provide an option to boot Android on the second processor. Caveat emptor, but that would cater to the people who only want to go so far, and all on the one piece of hardware.

Hmm. A modem is just straight CDC with no weirdness, right? Also, are there cellular-class Wi-Fi chipsets with open drivers out there?

To me, I absolutely envisage a secure phone as a secondary device. I might not want it in my possession all the time. Under certain circumstancs it might make sense for me to do a lot of activity on another phone so I do generate decipherable noise. I might want different/unusual notification policies (eg, maybe calls shouldn't even vibrate under certain circumstances).

The above is just me in stream-of-consciousness mode - but I've personally wanted a truly secure communicator for a very long time, not because I actually have anything to hide, but because I find the idea of being able to achieve near-perfect security (in particular, secure boot) really compelling.

I can understand why x86 was the only viable solution for the desktop, and kudos for just going ahead and making the effort with that design. I think that for mobile communications, being able to send and receive simple text messages using a secure hardware design that's running carefully-vetoed software would just be really really cool.

PS. Host USB would be incredibly useful. I really like your idea of having the port lock down though.

Re: ORWL – The first open source, physically secure computer

#162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The promotional video shows someone using Linux. Do they mention Windows somewhere else on their site?

They mention Windows compatibility as an explicit and mandatory goal of the project in the Crowdsupply project page.

Thanks, I missed that bit.

Re: ORWL – The first open source, physically secure computer

#163

Having some physical security in a OSS-hacker-compliant form factor is really quite nice. This is not going to replace a proper HSM, and almost certainly is a less secure place to store your data than an iPhone; but it's a good start for those unwilling to give up on (the performance of) PCs. It's worth noting that QubesOS, which is supported by this system, protects against e.g. USB-based attacks by running a virtua…

> almost certainly is a less secure place to store your data than an iPhone

How can this be assessed when we don't know the code that runs on an iPhone?

Re: ORWL – The first open source, physically secure computer

#164
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's all fine and good but they should not advertise it as secure if it's not.

There's no such thing as "secure", and frankly complaining that anything that has better security than regular products shouldn't advertise as such is ridiculous. How else is there any progress when the community's just pulling everyone down with this "it's no good if it isn't completely perfect" crap?

This product makes full disk encryption a bit more convenient, but that's about it. Even that turns something to know in something to have, which you could argue is easier to coerce someone into handing over.

The parent comment is right to point out this computer has a fully functioning Intel ME, running it's secret, unaudited, possibly backdoored, firmware on the co-processer which runs even when switched off, and can interact with the rest of the system undetected. Any "secure" system with this foundation isn't really secure.

IMHO a product which would focus more on this (like libreboot laptops) can make a bigger claim on doing something for security than this.

Re: ORWL – The first open source, physically secure computer

#165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Swipe the SoC, and no one would be the wiser. It would have to get swiped on the way from the manufacturer to the OEM. Once the OEM has sent it out, it's protected against this exact kind of attack. And while it may make sense for interdiction of a single package to a known target, doing the same with an entire batch of chips seems prohibitively expensive. > Given everything that has to be in place for vPro/the ME…

No, this is not per the documentation, this is per the physical specifications, the circuitry that needs to be in place, the support that needs to be in each component. The Management Engine is not as all-seeing as you make it out to be.

First time I hear this. Can you elaborate or give a source for this?

Re: ORWL – The first open source, physically secure computer

#167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Didn't know about this. They should have gone with AMD.

If you want to get away from that kind of thing, right now I think you're options are POWER8: https://www.raptorengineering.com/TALOS/prerelease.php AMD has something similar to the Intel Management Engine: https://libreboot.org/faq/#amd

There is also this, which is also still pre-release, but looks like it might be a but more affordable.

http://www.lowrisc.org

Re: ORWL – The first open source, physically secure computer

#168

Since the monitor is external, I wonder if they've considered monitors as attack surface: https://github.com/RedBalloonShenanigans/MonitorDarkly

This is an example of someone reprogramming the monitor, not using a monitor to attack the computer that it's connected to the video-out of. I'm not clear if there's an attack against the ORWL itself you have in mind here.

The VGA/DVI connectors have DCC pins for getting the monitor information. I've seen this connected to the SMBUS in the computer so it might be possible to gain access by hacking through the DCC pins on the video connector.

Re: ORWL – The first open source, physically secure computer

#169
post #163

Having some physical security in a OSS-hacker-compliant form factor is really quite nice. This is not going to replace a proper HSM, and almost certainly is a less secure place to store your data than an iPhone; but it's a good start for those unwilling to give up on (the performance of) PCs. It's worth noting that QubesOS, which is supported by this system, protects against e.g. USB-based attacks by running a virtua…

> almost certainly is a less secure place to store your data than an iPhone How can this be assessed when we don't know the code that runs on an iPhone?

He covered himself by using the word "almost". :)

I agree with you, I'd choose to rephrase the quote to:

> most uncertainly an iPhone is a secure place to store your data

Re: ORWL – The first open source, physically secure computer

#170

It's an interesting concept, for sure – but could someone more knowledgeable than me explain whether this leaves the system vulnerable to the potential, alleged backdoors present in Intel's chips via the Intel Management Engine?

No need for that, you just pawn it via USB.
Post reply on HN