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Researchers quantum teleport particle of light six kilometres

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Re: Researchers quantum teleport particle of light six kilometres

#161
post #99

Not quite as impressive when you know, and if you don't you should before opening this link, that "quantum teleportation" is not teleportation. It was a cool-sounding name at the time, but has nothing to do with sci-fi style teleportation: nothing disappears from one place and then shows up in another. "Quantum teleportation" is a process of information duplication using particles that already exist, and have been po…

At the subatomic level, is there any real difference between information and a "thing"? Seems mostly philosophical and arbitrary at that point.

I think what you are really asking is: what is the substantial reality of 'the thing', if it is merely 'information'.

All following quotes are from the documentary "Atomic Physics and Reality" [1 - 'emphasis' mine.].

John Wheeler:

    Einstein admired Bohr and Bohr admired Einstein. And you
    recall that Einstein felt that 'reality' exists, in effect,
    'out there', something independent of us. And the position
    of Bohr was rather this: that 'reality' is only a word and
    we have to learn what the right way is to use that word.

John Bell:

    Bohr, I think, quite in early in life had decided that
    ordinary concepts such as space and time simply wouldn't work
    at the atomic scale. And it was always a bit unclear what
    Bohr would replace those concepts by, if anything. But
    Einstein was very attached to the space-time description, and
    thought that one should try very hard to extend it into the
    atomic domain.

    And this was the root of the disagreement between the two men.

David Bohm:

    Bohr had developed a view in which he essentially would say
    that 'reality' was unknown or unknowable, or even had no 
    meaning, 'reality' by itself. Reality, except at the large
    scale level of ordinary experience, atomic reality had no 
    meaning, and all that we have are 'phenomena', produced in
    an 'experiment', and that quantum theory deals with the inter-
    relationships of all these phenomena.

Abner Shimony:

    Bohr was not a professional philosopher. How much of the 
    traditional philosophers he read, one does not know. But
    he was an extremely intelligent man and he must have thought
    through some of the issues that professional philosophers had
    thought through very deeply. And certainly one of the issues
    that he had though through considerably, with some help I 
    think from reading, was the Kantian issue of the status of
    'the thing in itself'. The 'thing' as it really is, quite
    apart from Human 'perception' of it. 

    Bohr, like Kant, was very suspicious that one can say anything
    significant, intelligent, controllable, about 'the thing in
    itself'. [Bohr] once said that physics or science in general
    was not about 'nature' but about nature exposed to our 
    'observation'. And that is very Kantian.
--

[1]: https://youtu.be/BFvJOZ51tmc

Re: Researchers quantum teleport particle of light six kilometres

#162
post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not a "hard constraint on the space of possible completions". That's assuming the answer to begin with.

No, it isn't. The mathematical formalism of QM is fully compatible with SR. QM can only be completed within the constraints of SR. To get FTL you would not have to complete QM, you would have to overthrow it and SR and GR and replace them all with something completely different. Not just that, but whatever you replaced it with would still have to account for the observed invariance in the speed of light in all refere…

> QM can only be completed within the constraints of SR.

This is not true. QM theory in general (without talking about particular Hamiltonians, field or otherwise or not) has no reliance on special relativity; it doesn't even have a reliance on positions in three-dimensional space (physicists who work in quantum information routinely work with QM at this level)! So again, you're already specifying QFT (e.g. by something like the Wightman axioms), which includes special relativity as an assumption.

> The impossibility of FTL is a direct logical consequence of the fact that there exists a universal speed reference in space-time.

This is what special and general relativity say. Not only are you begging the question again, but GR doesn't rule out violations of causality: there's a bunch of known models within GR that violate it[1]. Since GR is in fact more certain than SR (in that SR has strictly less explanatory power than GR since it's a special case of it), you must believe that it is as certain as anything else in science that causality violations are real!

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closed_timelike_curve

Re: Researchers quantum teleport particle of light six kilometres

#163
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More people-oriented answers: http://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/3158 Shortest answer to that question: http://physics.stackexchange.com/a/3162 >Imagine at home you put one glove in your coat without looking (and noticing it's only one of the two). After exiting the train you notice it's cold and you pull out that single glove. At this very instant you know it's either the left or the right glove, and you the…

There are a lot of (justified) comments on that answer. A crucial point of quantum uncertainty is that it's different from classical intuition. Particles behave like waves (e.g. cause interference with themselves) until observed. That doesn't happen with the glove.

The essence of the answer is that correlation doesn't imply causation (true).

The essence of the comment is that the correlation in a quantum case may be stronger than in a classical case such as the case with gloves (also true).

The comment doesn't invalidate the answer unless you think it does imply causation (non-locality). It just says that the answer is not the whole truth: that would be the complete mathematical description of QT with corresponding procedures to connect the math with observations.

The glove analogy obviously has its limits. It doesn't make it wrong. Otherwise, the accepted quantum theory is also wrong because it doesn't describe all known phenomena (consider gravity).

> "Particles behave like wave until observed"

Consider photon: it is neither wave nor particle in a classical sense. The math is such that in some cases it is easier to describe it as wave (interference pattern), in others—as particle (photoelectric effect).

It is surprising that the familiar concepts from a human scale (such as wave, particle) are useful in such a wide range of physical phenomena. Though only because they are more familiar does not make them more real than e.g., the concepts produced by the equations of the quantum theory.

All models are wrong—some are useful. (In a sense that there is no territory under a map, only more complete or different maps)

Re: Researchers quantum teleport particle of light six kilometres

#164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is probably also why SETI-like projects turn up nothing. It's likely that almost no advanced civilizations are using radio waves for communication.

I'm only a layman who's mildly interested in this, but this contradicts my understanding... Someone correct me if I'm wrong here. You can't communicate with quantum teleportation. It sends random "information" (not information at all), because you can't control how the quantum waveform collapses. So you have to collapse the waveform, create a key that encodes your collapsed form to the information you want to transmi…

you can't "communicate", but it would be useful for qubits in one quantum computer to be sent to another quantum computer without physically moving the qubit. that was what I meant by wide-area quantum information networks

Re: Researchers quantum teleport particle of light six kilometres

#165
post #99

Not quite as impressive when you know, and if you don't you should before opening this link, that "quantum teleportation" is not teleportation. It was a cool-sounding name at the time, but has nothing to do with sci-fi style teleportation: nothing disappears from one place and then shows up in another. "Quantum teleportation" is a process of information duplication using particles that already exist, and have been po…

At the subatomic level, is there any real difference between information and a "thing"? Seems mostly philosophical and arbitrary at that point.

Asking that question puts you in pretty good company[1]. There's a reason that the field of quantum information includes people looking fundamentally at physical systems, not just coming up with algorithms and implementations for quantum computers.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_physics#Wheeler.27s_.2...

Re: Researchers quantum teleport particle of light six kilometres

#166
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I know, ctrl-j [0] is correct. The quantum entangled state transfer may be instantaneous. However, this merely results in a correlation of measurements. In order to determine a correlation, you need to have both measurements to compare. This is the part that must be transferred classically. See my top-level post for more information [1]. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12548712 [1] https://news.yco…

The second photon that the first's state is being teleported to is constructed by performing certain operations on it and which ones are performed are determined by the two classical bits that are measured from the first photon (hence destroying the firsts's state). So from the first photon being destroyed to the second gaining its state, there must be a speed of light delay as those two classical bits are transmitte…

> So from the first photon being destroyed to the second gaining its state, there must be a speed of light delay as those two classical bits are transmitted.

This is the part where you are potentially wrong. Entanglement is about correlation. In order to derive the original message, you need the local entangled state, along with data from the remote actor. You could then correlate this information to derive the original remote entangled state -- ie, some message. Of course, this is now useless to you, as they could have simply sent the original message and saved you the correlation step.

However, I don't know of any reason that the local quantum state could not be measured prior to the arrival of the data from the remote actor. The math says that the measurable effect should happen instantaneously. But that data alone is not sufficient to derive a message.

Re: Researchers quantum teleport particle of light six kilometres

#167
post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it isn't. The mathematical formalism of QM is fully compatible with SR. QM can only be completed within the constraints of SR. To get FTL you would not have to complete QM, you would have to overthrow it and SR and GR and replace them all with something completely different. Not just that, but whatever you replaced it with would still have to account for the observed invariance in the speed of light in all refere…

> QM can only be completed within the constraints of SR. This is not true. QM theory in general (without talking about particular Hamiltonians, field or otherwise or not) has no reliance on special relativity; it doesn't even have a reliance on positions in three-dimensional space (physicists who work in quantum information routinely work with QM at this level)! So again, you're already specifying QFT (e.g. by someth…

You're right. Most people don't know the difference between QM and QFT, so I tend to use the terms interchangeably in casual exchanges.

You're right that GR doesn't rule out closed timelike curves, but to actually construct one you need to have matter with negative mass. So you can interpret this in two ways, as a prediction that FTL is possible, or a prediction that negative-mass matter does not exist.

Nonetheless, since you clearly understand physics, I'll restate my claim more precisely: the likelihood of FTL being possible is extremely small, for all reasonable purposes indistinguishable from zero on current scientific knowledge, and the existence of entanglement does not change this one bit. It would take something like the discovery of exotic matter with negative mass to move the needle on FTL.

Re: Researchers quantum teleport particle of light six kilometres

#168
post #96

Not quite as impressive when you know, and if you don't you should before opening this link, that "quantum teleportation" is not teleportation. It was a cool-sounding name at the time, but has nothing to do with sci-fi style teleportation: nothing disappears from one place and then shows up in another. "Quantum teleportation" is a process of information duplication using particles that already exist, and have been po…

right, "quantum teleportation" is a woefully misleading name, however this is still an impressive advancement and quantum teleportation will play a key role in wide-area quantum information networks

Since nobody has mentioned it, maybe I didn't understand the implications, but does this mean there is a chance in the future we won't have "bandwidth"? I could replicate data from a server into my personal computer instantly?

Re: Researchers quantum teleport particle of light six kilometres

#169
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the subatomic level, is there any real difference between information and a "thing"? Seems mostly philosophical and arbitrary at that point.

I think what you are really asking is: what is the substantial reality of 'the thing', if it is merely 'information' . All following quotes are from the documentary "Atomic Physics and Reality" [1 - 'emphasis' mine.]. John Wheeler: Einstein admired Bohr and Bohr admired Einstein. And you recall that Einstein felt that 'reality' exists, in effect, 'out there', something independent of us. And the position of Bohr was…

Actually, I find it very intuitive that reality is just information. It's much easier than setting it apart as ineffable.

Re: Researchers quantum teleport particle of light six kilometres

#170

Not quite as impressive when you know, and if you don't you should before opening this link, that "quantum teleportation" is not teleportation. It was a cool-sounding name at the time, but has nothing to do with sci-fi style teleportation: nothing disappears from one place and then shows up in another. "Quantum teleportation" is a process of information duplication using particles that already exist, and have been po…

You've compounded their lazy science reporting by making quite a few mistakes yourself in your description: 1. There is no duplication or copying of information, the original particle's state is destroyed. Copying is impossible when dealing with general quantum states[1]. (You may be thinking of measuring an entangled pair to randomly produce a stream of classical bits on each side that is the precise inverse of what…

"Duplication" was the wrong term, I should have said "destructive-read/write", which I did in another comment.

2. There is no teleportation in the common man, sci-fi interpretation. In order to effect the information transferral we need three times as many particles as we're transferring the information of. Per particle whose state is to be tranferred, we need two entangled particles and a target particle. To translate that to the "teleporting a thing" case, if you were to teleport a cake, you'd need a cake, two (entangled) cake-equivalent mass collections, and a target "generic particle collection" to be turned into "your cake" after running the QT algorithm. It's only teleportation if you pretend that triplicate wasted-once-used mass isn't there, which we can't do: it's there, and this is QT, not 'regular' teleportation (ignoring the fact that there is no such thing outside of works of fiction =)

3. fair enough, I simplified that the wrong way.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_entanglement and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_entanglement#Applicati... might work better as highlighting links here, although something like "Quantum Computation and Quantum Information" by Nielsen and Chuang would be a much better reference.

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