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How Bad Off Is Oil-Rich Venezuela? It’s Buying U.S. Oil

nytimes.com

161–170 of 186 posts

Re: How Bad Off Is Oil-Rich Venezuela? It’s Buying U.S. Oil

#161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure that's how the black market works. I don't think I can exchange dollars for bolivars. That sounds like a losing proposition for the black market.

I'm pretty sure that's how the black market works. Why do you think otherwise? If you were on the black market, you'd LOVE to exchange bolivars for dollars. The inflation rate is over 700% I think this year, and it's only going up. Why wouldn't you want something that's almost guaranteed to be valuable, instead of holding on to a rapidly depreciating asset?

He said, he won't want to exchange dollars for bolivars. He is right, what are you going to do with with the bolivar? By the time you get to spend it, it's lost it's value by tons. Unless you are buying land, or paying people and doing business. But even then you run the risk of having your land, business seized. Anyone with dollar will hoard it as much as possible. It's your golden ticket out of the country.

Re: How Bad Off Is Oil-Rich Venezuela? It’s Buying U.S. Oil

#162
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sweden, Norway and to some degree Germany could be mentioned as successful examples.

Germany (as one example) has a social expenditure of 25% versus USA at 19%[0]. Switzerland is 19.4%. [0] https://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=SOCX_AGG

Using social expenditure in % of GDP to measure its "cost-effectiveness" is problematic, as there's wide agreement social spending has a big impact on GDP. (Structure of the spending is the other big variable of course)

Re: How Bad Off Is Oil-Rich Venezuela? It’s Buying U.S. Oil

#163
post #6

> Early this year, the United States began shipping more than 50,000 barrels a day of the light crude that Venezuela needs to prepare its own oil for export What does this mean? How does this work? Why do you need oil to make oil?

This is addressed in the article: the oil industry in Venezuela is in disarray, so the country can't rely on its own supply. They have enormous reserves, but they can't reliably draw from it or refine it.

There's much more to it than that.

1. Not all oil is created equal. Most especially, oil has different qualities of hydrocarbon lengths (longer == heavier, more tar-like) and contaminants ("sour" == more sulfer). Light sweet is the optimum input for most transport fuel needs (petrol, kerosene/jet fuel, diesel).

2. Not all oil has the same extraction costs. In particular, Venezuela's oil has a much higher cost of extraction than Saudi Arabia's.

While there's a very strong tendency to attack Venezuela for having a failed socialistic / command economy, possibly with some merits, a much more direct issue is that Venezuela benefitted from oil which in the past was easier to extract and bring to market than its offerings today, combined with a long history of extensive domestic market subsidies of basic goods, including both energy and food (which, if you think about it, both reduce to "energy).

The same story has already played out in large part through the nations affected by the Arab Spring. Whilst we're not used to thinking of Egypt and Syria as large oil exporters, the truth is that they had some local oil extraction operations, enough to provide exports and some hard cash (of a useful quality: US Dollars, which had the added benefit of not affecting the value of their domestic currencies in foreign trade). Tunisia, Libya, and Yemen are also being affected by falling oil exports (the first two were where the Arab Spring originated, Yemen has had ongoing conflicts).

Russia is watching its cash reserves fall, also hit by a soft market for global oil. This has some strong parallels to the fall of the Soviet Union itself, in the wake of the late 1980s oil glut, then driven by increased supply-side dynamics as North Sea and North Slope, as well as offshore Gulf of Mexico extraction came online.

Saudi Arabia has the optimum product -- light sweet crude which flows (fairly) freely from the largest oilfields and most productive wells in the world. But depressed prices are hitting it as well, and its financial status has been discussed for the past year or several -- as with Venezuela, Saudi Arabia buys domestic tranquility with its oil export cash. As with much of the Gulf region, it also faces some of the most rapid population growth in the world (oil exporting states are a curious exception to the usual rule of Demographic Transition).

There's another interesting situation, one I've just run across a standard economic treatment / term for -- inverted or "backward-S" supply curves. Usually applied to labour, this also seems to fit the situation of natural resources. Where market prices fall to close to the marginal cost of extraction, the tendency of suppliers, especially those with fixed costs to meet, is to increase rates of extraction. This is quite typical of oil boomtimes (Titusville, PA, Spindletop, TX, and the East Texas Oil Field most especially). In the case of the latter, oil prices in the US fell from $1/bbl to $0.13/bbl, and then further to $0.02/bbl, before the governors of Oaklahoma called out their respective national guards, and in Texas, the Rangers, to sieze wellheads at force of arms to constrain supply. The result was the implementation of US production quotas, in effect from 1932 - 1973, under the US Department of Interior and the Texas Railroad Commission. It's a fascinating bit of economic history.

The size of reserves doesn't matter so much if the costs of extraction, or quality of product, aren't in your favour. Venezuela is somewhat cursed with riches, in that respect.

Re: How Bad Off Is Oil-Rich Venezuela? It’s Buying U.S. Oil

#164
post #6

> Early this year, the United States began shipping more than 50,000 barrels a day of the light crude that Venezuela needs to prepare its own oil for export What does this mean? How does this work? Why do you need oil to make oil?

This is addressed in the article: the oil industry in Venezuela is in disarray, so the country can't rely on its own supply. They have enormous reserves, but they can't reliably draw from it or refine it.

Oh, and one more point I just realised.

Much of US oil extraction in recent years emphasises what are called NGL and condensate. These are very light components of oil and natural gas extraction, too light even to be used in motor fuel. There was a point where condensate was used for early automobiles, but it had a very low octane rating, meaning the engines burning it couldn't have very high compression ratios, or be very efficient.

I'd have to check with a petroleum engineer, but the thought that this surplus US ultra-light not-suitable-for-fuel liquid might be helpful to mix with Venezuela's heavy extract seems at least intuitively sensible.

Simply mixing light and heavy oils won't produce useful fuel, but it might help even in getting the heavy stuff (some of which really is little more than tar) to simply flow through the refining plant and distribution systems.

"Cracking" of long hydrocarbon chains can produce usable lighter fuels, and is, if I understand correctly, actually a physical process of treating heavy oil with very fine sand, at high speed, to physically split longer hydrocarbon chains. Read with caution, I'm well out of my depth.

----

And: confirmation that US light crude is being imported as a dilutant for Venezuelan crude, via Reuters: http://www.reuters.com/article/us-oil-venezuela-imports-fact...

Re: How Bad Off Is Oil-Rich Venezuela? It’s Buying U.S. Oil

#165

Curious American asking any Venezuelans out there: how does this situation get any better? What do you look to for hope? I'm not familiar with the Venezuelan media perspective (any non-state-affiliated stations left?), but from here, it seems like there is no serious effort to change course; on the contrary Maduro seems to be driving ahead with the notion that, somehow, more of the poison will cure the patient. When…

The price of oil increases.

Or Venezuela discovers it's sitting on vast undiscovered reserves of Unicorn Poop.

What we're seeing is, IMO, far less the Evuls of Socialisum than the end-game of an oil state. There's a similar story playing out through much of the Arab world, as you may have noticed over the past few years.

Re: How Bad Off Is Oil-Rich Venezuela? It’s Buying U.S. Oil

#166
post #48
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, but what about the other states that spend on social programs and ended up successful? This is like throwing out a carton of eggs because one of them broke.

Sweden, Norway and to some degree Germany could be mentioned as successful examples.

The Nordics are awkward examples if you follow their trajectory back to the 70s, with periods of socialization and liberalization in the mix:

http://www.cityam.com/article/1394655511/forget-nordic-socia...

We pretend there are clean examples, but everything is pretty messy, and we rarely get any pure test cases for any economic philosophy.

Macro is black arts. "Avoid price controls" and "don't print boatloads of money" seem like reasonable guidelines. Beyond that, who knows? Corruption's bad but hard to stop. Moving risk around is (sometimes)* bad but hard to stop. Shrug and try not to do anything too extreme.

* Insurance is a beneficial example.

Re: How Bad Off Is Oil-Rich Venezuela? It’s Buying U.S. Oil

#167
There are some crucial points missing from and/or obscured in this story. Yes, Venezuelay has run some massive social benefit programmes, including subsidising many standard goods, mosts especially fuel and food (both of which, on reflection are fuels), for years. So has virtually every other oil state.

The situation in Venezuela devolves in large part, though not entirely exclusively, from:

1. The globally depressed petroleum market. After massive price spikes in the late 2000s, increased extraction, mostly from very highly-financed unconventional wells, and an ongoing global economic recession, have caused oil prices to fall.

2. The highly-financed well operators, much as Venezuela, have the problem of high fixed costs, mostly debts, which must be serviced in order to avoid bankruptcy. This creates a perverse incentive to increase supply as price falls. Since these operators have high marginal costs, their profits are also lower to start with.

3. Venezuela's oil reserves, among the largest in the world, have always been less desireable than West Texas or Persian Gulf oil, both of which are "light sweet crude" -- comprised largely of smaller hydrocarbons, and low in contaminants, especially sulfer. Saudi crude flows like syrup, Venezuelan more like molassas on a cold day. Venezuela previously had more light and medium crude oil, but production of these has fallen by 37% since 2004 (Reuters, below).

4. Much of recent US domestic oil supply has been of NGL (natural gas liquids) and condensate -- very light fractions of hydrocarbons, some of which are only very barely not gaseous at normal temperatures. (This is also, incidentally, why oil train wrecks and fires have been so volatile -- the lighter fractions of oil are exceptionally volatile and burn explosively.) Much of this supply is not suitable for use in transport fuels. You cannot produce petrol, kerosene/jet fuel, or diesel from them, and the US has been (quietly) looking for ways to export this anyway. See this Wall Street Journal article from June, 2014:

http://blogs.wsj.com/corporate-intelligence/2014/06/25/what-...

Oil industry critics have argued that counting condensate/NGL in US crude oil extraction statistics isn't defensible.

http://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/The-Condensate-Con...

Exports of condensate began only in 2014 following regulatory rule changes:

http://fuelfix.com/blog/2014/06/24/feds-open-door-to-condens...

5. Venezuela is using the US imports as dilutants for its heavy oil. I suggested this in an earlier reply, and confirmed the fact in a Reuters artice:

Each barrel extracted from the Orinoco belt needs some kind of diluent to be transported and exported. Naphtha is typically used to transport crude to the upgraders, but when these facilities are not fully working or are under maintenance lighter crudes are needed to formulate blends for exports.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-oil-venezuela-imports-fact...

Venezuela previously imported distillates from Nigeria in the 1990s.

6. As the NY Times article does manage to mention, Venezuela faces large debt and financing obligations to multiple creditors, including China, and several US firms, including Halliburton.

As with several previous Venezuela stories on HN, there's been a swarm of comments attacking the Venezuelan government and political systems. At best, those criticisms tell only a part of the story, and quite possibly a minor part.

Re: How Bad Off Is Oil-Rich Venezuela? It’s Buying U.S. Oil

#168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pretty sure that's how the black market works. Why do you think otherwise? If you were on the black market, you'd LOVE to exchange bolivars for dollars. The inflation rate is over 700% I think this year, and it's only going up. Why wouldn't you want something that's almost guaranteed to be valuable, instead of holding on to a rapidly depreciating asset?

He said, he won't want to exchange dollars for bolivars. He is right, what are you going to do with with the bolivar? By the time you get to spend it, it's lost it's value by tons. Unless you are buying land, or paying people and doing business. But even then you run the risk of having your land, business seized. Anyone with dollar will hoard it as much as possible. It's your golden ticket out of the country.

Did you not read my comments?

I said that exchanging dollars for bolivars was easy. Exchanging bolivars for dollars, that's different.

You realize you just said that you said the exact reversal of my statement.

Re: How Bad Off Is Oil-Rich Venezuela? It’s Buying U.S. Oil

#169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Communism is tied to state-run monopolies of companies. Yes, the main fault was an incompetent authoritarian rule, but it wouldn't have been possible if the oil company hadn't be nationalized. If Venezuela has an incompetent authoritarian rule, but had a free market for oil companies and didn't harass the employees of oil companies? Then they'd still be drilling with a state-of-the-art technology & workforce today.

ok sure, but I still don't see what that has to do with Communism. suppose their incompetent authoritarian system had been nominally capitalist? or a theocracy? or a monarchy? what difference does it make. my point is its the incompetence and authoritarianism that caused the problems.

> I still don't see what that has to do with Communism

> my point is its the incompetence and authoritarianism that caused the problems

A lot of people believe there's a causal road from Communist governing philosophies to incompetent authoritarianism (though you're right, it certainly wouldn't be the only way to get there).

Re: How Bad Off Is Oil-Rich Venezuela? It’s Buying U.S. Oil

#170

What I don't understand is, how the hell are the leaders still in power? Why aren't people taking drastic action against this failed government? If people are literally not eating food, that's typically when there's a revolution. If I couldn't eat everyday and feed my family, I'd be out in the streets. Why not? You have nothing to lose at that point.

>Why aren't people taking drastic action against this failed government?

They don't have the 2nd Amendment.

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