Live data from Hacker News

Music theory for nerds

eev.ee

161–170 of 390 posts

Re: Music theory for nerds

#161
post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious, did you immediately grasp the syntax of every programming language you've ever learned?

Well, in our programming world new languages seem to come out every week, trying to find better ways to write programs. By this standard a new way to encode music is long overdue.

In that metaphor, coming up with a new way to encode music is like releasing a new programming language and then asking everyone to write their own compiler for it. Not impossible, but it would have to be a hell of an encoding!

Re: Music theory for nerds

#162

> Also, this notation has a slight problem. That problem is that sheet music is terrible. > This has got to be some of the worst jargon and notation for anything, ever. I hear it bandied around in these articles that music notation is awful. Can someone explain to me why? I'm not much of a musician, but I can work my way through sheet music if necessary, or write it when I want to. I don't remember what it was like t…

> I hear it bandied around in these articles that music > notation is awful. Can someone explain to me why? I've played a lot with alternatives, and disagree. But I can explain why people might object to it, but then defend the settlement. There's so much harmonic music in our lives that most people take harmony for granted. Separately, someone who was interested in only a subset of western music might decide that we…

I think this comment may have been written for someone else to read, it's less of a "head start" and more of a "let's review the fundamentals".

My point about the chromatic scale not being "correct" is that it's inconvenient to make the chromatic scale the primary scale we use in notation. We certainly make use of the chromatic scale, but we notate its use with accidentals and key changes.

That doesn't work well for some of Schönberg's works and it doesn't work at all for some of Wendy Carlos, but traditional music notation seems to work pretty well most of the time, and anything based on a chromatic scale would be inferior most of the time.

Re: Music theory for nerds

#163

In case anyone is searching for a really smart, modern method for learning music theory, this is it: https://www.hooktheory.com The author devised his own system for visually representing notes, it makes it much easier to understand things like scale degrees and relative notation (and thus the theory around famous harmonies, melodies, etc). I think music tools are in desperate need for improvement... Starting with no…

Thanks for the recommendation, I just bought the Hook Theory book and it looks quite good. I've been searching for something like that for a while!

Re: Music theory for nerds

#164
post #152

> It completely obscures the relationship between the pitches, though. It doesn't actually obscure the relationship between the notes -- it makes them clearer. For example, I see the notes C, E, and G on some sheet music, maybe with some accidentals on some of those notes. I know that I'm therefore supposed to play a C triad. Now, there are multiple kinds of triads, but once I know I'm supposed to play a triad, it's…

> we say that a piece is in the key of C major when it resolves to the a C major chord at the end Can you ELI5 that for me, please? I'm very interested to have a better understanding of that concept.

Resolving to a chord just means that the music sounds "complete" when it hits that chord. In other words, it wouldn't sound weird if the song ended right there.

For example, if you hear "Happy Birthday" played in C, the final chord is C major, and the song sounds done. If you heard it with the final chord changed to something else, it would sound like it was leading somewhere, and you'd expect another verse or a bridge or something to follow.

Re: Music theory for nerds

#165
post #16
post #8

TLDR: a person who knows nothing about music or music theory gripes about music and music theory. Admittedly knows nothing, right off the bat and several times throughout the text. How can you declare something to be "terrible", "the worst notation for anything ever", and so forth if you admittedly know nothing of the subject? I know nothing about databases, would reading the Wikipedia page on NoSQL entitle me to dec…

It can be clear to a newcomer that a system has problems without needing to understand everything, or even very much. Sometimes the newcomer is wrong, but a quick scan of the comments here indicate that a number of musicians agree.

Funny, I skimmed the comments and actually came to the conclusion that I did not need to write another one stating that music notation, not unlike many other complicated tools, is perhaps at first sight arbitrary and odd, but after working with it for a while you find that all the little quirks, like having multiple ways to write the same note, are actually very helpful.

Re: Music theory for nerds

#166

In case anyone is searching for a really smart, modern method for learning music theory, this is it: https://www.hooktheory.com The author devised his own system for visually representing notes, it makes it much easier to understand things like scale degrees and relative notation (and thus the theory around famous harmonies, melodies, etc). I think music tools are in desperate need for improvement... Starting with no…

Thanks for the recommendation, I just bought the Hook Theory book and it looks quite good. I've been searching for something like that for a while!

I've not read the book but the tool is amazing. I believe the authors have been working on a HTML rewrite for some years now (currently it's Flash). The whole site design got redone a month or two ago, so there may be more changes on the way.

Re: Music theory for nerds

#167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I hear it bandied around in these articles that music > notation is awful. Can someone explain to me why? I've played a lot with alternatives, and disagree. But I can explain why people might object to it, but then defend the settlement. There's so much harmonic music in our lives that most people take harmony for granted. Separately, someone who was interested in only a subset of western music might decide that we…

I think this comment may have been written for someone else to read, it's less of a "head start" and more of a "let's review the fundamentals". My point about the chromatic scale not being "correct" is that it's inconvenient to make the chromatic scale the primary scale we use in notation. We certainly make use of the chromatic scale, but we notate its use with accidentals and key changes. That doesn't work well for…

    > I think this comment may have been written for someone
    > else to read, it's less of a "head start" and more of a
    > "let's review the fundamentals".
Early hours of morning here, no doubt flawed.

    > My point about the chromatic scale not being "correct"
    > is that it's inconvenient to make the chromatic scale
    > anything based on a chromatic scale would be inferior
    > most of the time.
Yeah, I strongly agree.

Re: Music theory for nerds

#168

> It completely obscures the relationship between the pitches, though. It doesn't actually obscure the relationship between the notes -- it makes them clearer. For example, I see the notes C, E, and G on some sheet music, maybe with some accidentals on some of those notes. I know that I'm therefore supposed to play a C triad. Now, there are multiple kinds of triads, but once I know I'm supposed to play a triad, it's…

Reading this over again, it seems like the author's not yet fully wrapped their mind around "big picture" stuff like keys, chords, basic compositional structure, etc. It's an... interesting choice to write a piece proclaiming that musical notation is absurd when you're only a beginner.

If you are mathematically literate but a beginner in music most texts on music won't tell you the simple stuff in here. And most music students can't tell you what an octave means (i.e. frequency doubles) besides something wooly like "(a C an octave up from another C) is the same note but a different pitch".

This text is what it claims to be: music theory for nerds (just not necessarily music nerds!)

Re: Music theory for nerds

#169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well temperament is not the same as equal temperament. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Well_temperament The whole point of Bach’s Well-Tempered Clavier music is that tunes transposed to different keys sounded different, so you needed to compose the music specifically for each key. There’s some ongoing musicological debate about the details, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Well-Tempered_Clavier

>The whole point of Bach’s Well-Tempered Clavier music is that tunes transposed to different keys sounded different, so you needed to compose the music specifically for each key. that sounds wrong. tranposing a piece into the instrument's natural temperament will make it sound better. TWC doesn't do that, you play a piece of any key without needing to transpose anything, because the piano is equally-tempered and has…

For context, this is a nice interview about harpsichord and fortepiano: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pdBNkgdUJc

And here’s some general explanation of well temperament on a piano: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNY7Eyntlt0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bC8p1PmB6sk

(Watch those last ones if you want to understand why 18th and early 19th century music sounds so lackluster on equal tempered modern pianos.)

Re: Music theory for nerds

#170
post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there an article/book/video anyone can recommend that explains the advantages of modern staff notation in terms that beginners can understand? In particular, I think everyone would agree that it's it's much harder for beginners to hunt and peck sheet music in modern staff notation than it is for a novice typist to type words on a QWERTY keyboard. (At least when the sheet music is written in any key except C major,…

I don't think you can explain it to someone who can't play music, because it's a notation for music. You could teach someone to play an instrument the old-fashioned way, person-to-person without any sheets, and once they understood music (i.e. what patterns of notes sound good or don't) ask them to come up with a way to write it down, and they'd come up with something much like staff notation. But that's a very labou…

I think a lot of the favoring of staff notation comes down to what the instrument does well. A majority of acoustic instruments are monophonic(voice, wind, brass, many strings) and have some form of linearity in pitch, and the staff accommodates them optimally - the beginner's sheet music always starts out by accompanying the staff with fingerings for each note, to help you get some confidence that you are actually playing right notes, and then after that it's pretty straightforward to extend your knowlege to read more notes.

Chord structure just isn't even touched in most of these instruments, at least in classical performance, because they aren't capable of polyphony! That only becomes a topic as one starts moving into, e.g., jazz improvisation, where knowing how to recognize and play around a root is critical. Piano is exceptional here, since finger independence and chording practically define that instrument.

On the other hand, guitar tabs are a Big Thing in part because guitar chords transpose very well, so you don't have to learn too many unique fingerings to start accessing the others - and then if the song is defined as a sung melody plus rhythmic chord backing, as a lot of popular songs are, you don't need more than a tab and hearing the tune once to have a shot at covering it competently.

Guitar's 2D layout favors isomorphism - this is what gives it this extra power to transpose. Guitar is conventionally not tuned isomorphically, but some forms of accordion like bayan, and alternative keyboard layouts such as Wicki-Hayden, Harmonic Table or Janko, are fully isomorphic. In that case, you don't have to mode set or learn any unique scales or chord fingering per key: Learn any set of intervals(chords or scales) and you can reuse them in every key by moving your fingers over. This is wonderful for learning theory and doing composition, but it doesn't make the instruments a 1-to-1 replacement for similar instruments as in performance the distances are usually much smaller, fingerings can get tangled, it can be harder to find your place or maintain tempo, etc.

Post reply on HN