A Third of Valve Is Now Working on VR • Hacker News Board

Re: A Third of Valve Is Now Working on VR

#161

Post by thescriptkiddie » Tue, Jun 21, 2016, 5:01 PM UTC

flatline wrote: post #116

partiallypro wrote: post #94

In all of my experiencing of the new VR products, I am firmly in the position that it's not ready for public consumption yet and won't be for quite some time. The only real reason it's being pushed hard is because people have a fear of missing out. Meanwhile, if I were a company I'd be focusing on AR, because at least there you can push for enterprise customers which won't need the full immersion yet that a general c…

VR fundamentally conflicts with how the eyes focus, and it will never be solved with the current technology. For some people it's not a big problem, but a sizeable portion of the population will be unable to use VR at all or for any extended period without ending up with eye strain, headaches, nausea, and/or a general sense of malaise. It will always be something of a niche technology IMO - very cool, but of limited…

The problem with 3D films has nothing to do with focus. It has to do with an incorrect projection method[0], inevitable IPD mismatch, narrow FOV, and the distortion inherent in sitting anywhere except the the exact center of the theater

As far a depth queues go, accommodation is a very weak one that your brain learns to ignore after a few seconds. If that wasn't the case, anyone wearing glasses would stumble into things constantly every time they put their glasses on or off. And this doesn't cause eye strain either, unless the focal plane is too close (perhaps less than 60 cm away), in which case it just feels like sitting too close to a computer monitor. The focal plane of the HTC Vive is approximately 75 cm away, which seems far enough. Obviously infinity would be better but compromises had to be made to keep the optics compact.

The real limiting factors on VR right now are the lack of full-body tracking[1] (you can see your hands but not your feet), the lack of simulated inertia[2] (virtual objects appear massless), and the lack of eye tracking[3] (convergence depth queue becomes incorrect as you move your eyes off center, avatars look dead). Solutions to all of these exist, it's just a matter of cost.

Keep in mind that VR is an extremely compelling experience right now. It's just that every feeling of presence is hard to hold on to for more than a few minutes at a time.

[0] http://doc-ok.org/?p=77

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldQDa-IMo7I

[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=610iTKlYBVM

[3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRfthZaBBPY

Re: A Third of Valve Is Now Working on VR

#162

Post by flatline » Tue, Jun 21, 2016, 5:02 PM UTC

burkaman wrote: post #136

flatline wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

VR fundamentally conflicts with how the eyes focus, and it will never be solved with the current technology. For some people it's not a big problem, but a sizeable portion of the population will be unable to use VR at all or for any extended period without ending up with eye strain, headaches, nausea, and/or a general sense of malaise. It will always be something of a niche technology IMO - very cool, but of limited…

Do you have some source for this insurmountable eye focusing problem? Even just an anecdotal one? I've never experienced it, none of my friends have, and the worst I've heard about online is motion sickness issues from certain types of games.

They are plentiful - for one example, see the article and comments here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11795913

Re: A Third of Valve Is Now Working on VR

#163

Post by marcelluspye » Tue, Jun 21, 2016, 5:02 PM UTC

hinkley wrote: post #148

intrasight wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As was the case with early personal computers - until some "killer apps" arrived. For businesses, the killer app was Lotus 1-2-3 and/or WordPerfect. Rest assured that some clever young things are actively working on the killer apps for VR headsets. I assume there will be at least one, and I assume that it won't be a FPS game.

No. You're seeing a low adoption rate and imagining that it's just the typical adoption cycle taught in Business 101. VR has been the next big thing for twenty years. It's not a niche technology because of Luddites, it is a niche technology because it works against human physiology and only a lucky few are totally unaffected by it. You're targeting an audience of people who find your product merely tolerable. And sin…

This doesn't seem quite right either, though. People had been talking about 'virtual reality' for a long time, but only recently has there been so much activity in trying to make available to consumers. It's true that a non-trivial amount of people experience motion sickness, but I'd hardly call the people who use it without such issues the 'lucky few.'

Re: A Third of Valve Is Now Working on VR

#164

Post by hew » Tue, Jun 21, 2016, 5:04 PM UTC

vocatus_gate wrote: post #80

I wish they would get back to what they used to do - make actual computer games. I still can't shake the nagging suspicion that the recent VR hype is just the product of the every-decade-or-so fad cycle (similar to what happened in the 80's with it).

Have you tried a headset yet? I think this time is different.

I thought it sounded like an early adopter money pit myself until I actually tried a Rift. It won me over even while underpowered (MB Air!) in very simple demos.

Re: A Third of Valve Is Now Working on VR

#165

Post by marcelluspye » Tue, Jun 21, 2016, 5:05 PM UTC

roninb wrote: post #159

hinkley wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. You're seeing a low adoption rate and imagining that it's just the typical adoption cycle taught in Business 101. VR has been the next big thing for twenty years. It's not a niche technology because of Luddites, it is a niche technology because it works against human physiology and only a lucky few are totally unaffected by it. You're targeting an audience of people who find your product merely tolerable. And sin…

I may be too young to recall, but I seem to remember 30+ year olds complaining about how touch screens would never catch on around 2005-06. Something about the masses never accepting a product that's "merely tolerable." I recall the same about the size of a phone in hand a few years after that and we haven't seen a sub-5" phone really sell well in how long?

I remember showing some of my A.V. club buddies my Note 2 not long after it came out and getting laughed at. "It's like holding a magazine to your head!"

Without changing phone size, most of my friends now have bigger or equal sized phones, and I've gotten at least one 'you told me so' since then.

Re: A Third of Valve Is Now Working on VR

#166

Post by flatline » Tue, Jun 21, 2016, 5:07 PM UTC

adam12 wrote: post #141

flatline wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

VR fundamentally conflicts with how the eyes focus, and it will never be solved with the current technology. For some people it's not a big problem, but a sizeable portion of the population will be unable to use VR at all or for any extended period without ending up with eye strain, headaches, nausea, and/or a general sense of malaise. It will always be something of a niche technology IMO - very cool, but of limited…

> I have only ever watched one film in 3D what movie?

The one with the blue people.

Re: A Third of Valve Is Now Working on VR

#167

Post by marricks » Tue, Jun 21, 2016, 5:10 PM UTC

pyrophane wrote: post #156

marricks wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's weird your comment is so far up and you haven't given any reasons as to why VR is not ready for mainstream. You have a reason for why it's being pushed, but not a reason for why it won't take. Steam sale numbers show tens of thousands of games are being bought by Vive owners, which is a pretty high percentage of the ~90k Vive units out there. Some games are as high as 50k / ~90k units. People are continuing to b…

I own a Vive and love it, but I'll give a few reasons why VR may not quite be ready yet: - The resolution needs to be higher. It is very difficult to read anything but oversized text at a hand's distance. While the low resolution doesn't kill the immersive effect of VR, it is very noticeable. - The clear viewing angle through the headset is small. You can't look too far off of center screen before everything becomes…

I think some of those will always be problems or be problems for a long time, but the core experience of presence makes them matter less.

- Resolution: It'll always be worse than a phone because for the foreseeable future VR screens will come from phone screens and the field of view on a VR HMD is many times greater. People liked doom 1 and other low res games for what they were in the day, and I think people will accept the trade off.

- Oculus Rift is pretty sharp across the FOV, I hear Vive is a bit worse in this respect.

- Moving in VR is hard... I think 3rd person view is pretty great for action/adventure games. I think the nature and style of games will inherently need to shift, which we're already seeing a bit in the Oculus Home catalog.

- True, it's the chicken and egg paradox. How can you get big games without a big user base? How do you get a big user base? I think Oculus and Valve are getting this right by directly investing in games. We have more and more fun games from large studios coming out which our current user base size really shouldn't allow for.

I think the first and second points are the strongest as it requires a change of expectations, and highlight the real fight for adoption in VR. FPS games wont work, and the most obvious metric that gamers had for high quality experience, resolution, is going to appear lower.

Only response is current gamers enjoying buying and playing games on Vive. As game developers figure new fun experiences for the platform that overcome those obstacles we'll likely start to see more success. I think a key will definitely be social aspects, as there isn't anything quite like standing next to someone or an avatar that is interacting with you in VR.

Re: A Third of Valve Is Now Working on VR

#168

Post by sergiosgc » Tue, Jun 21, 2016, 5:16 PM UTC

forthefuture wrote: post #157

marricks wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's weird your comment is so far up and you haven't given any reasons as to why VR is not ready for mainstream. You have a reason for why it's being pushed, but not a reason for why it won't take. Steam sale numbers show tens of thousands of games are being bought by Vive owners, which is a pretty high percentage of the ~90k Vive units out there. Some games are as high as 50k / ~90k units. People are continuing to b…

I personally think it's not ready for the following reasons: * Many people are getting sick. They don't even know why it's happening; we're years away from it being fixed. VR right now is the 3d on the 3ds. It's not meant for human eyes and they're rushing it. * No eyetracking. Your camera focuses on the direction your head is pointed. This is not how humans see. I am virtually never looking the exact direction my he…

>Many people are getting sick.

Source? It runs contrary to my experience, and my sample is large enough to be data, not anecdata.

> Eyetracking

Not needed for gaming. From your text it looks like you're thinking in terms of virtual desktop, which is not the target.

> Games

Too early to tell. There are already a few very good titles and a promising pipeline anyhow. The outlook is positive, not negative.

> Price/version

It is the same logic that should have doomed the yet undoomed gaming graphic adapter market.

> FOV

Acceptable for first generation devices. Does not prevent immersion.

> Lock-in/exclusivity

Basically the only valid point in your list. True. I don't think it kills VR, but fragmenting a small market is a dumb dumb move.

Re: A Third of Valve Is Now Working on VR

#169

Post by arcanus » Tue, Jun 21, 2016, 5:33 PM UTC

intrasight wrote: post #122

sergiosgc wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see two avenues for great VR games: 1) Cockpit based games. Flying a plane, or spaceship, in VR is immensely better than on a screen. I get nauseous in car racing games but, my friends who do not, rate them as best simulated driving experience ever. 2) Room scale games. Here, I have no idea wich ones. It is a complete green field in terms of gaming. There are some great concepts, like Fantastic Contraption or the "…

I totally agree about "room scale games". Has add-on benefits of getting out of the house and getting some exercise. Here's my idea (shh - don't tell anyone). Buy an abandoned roller skating rink and transform it into a VR game space. Of course this assume that some other entity will create one or more compelling games to be played in your space.

> Buy an abandoned roller skating rink and transform it into a VR game space

I also love this idea, but it still has many barriers. Principal technical issue is that these headsets are not wireless, which means you would need anot overhead motor system to follow you around as you walked.

Re: A Third of Valve Is Now Working on VR

#170

Post by ghostly_s » Tue, Jun 21, 2016, 5:36 PM UTC

gambiting wrote: post #135

partiallypro wrote: post #94

In all of my experiencing of the new VR products, I am firmly in the position that it's not ready for public consumption yet and won't be for quite some time. The only real reason it's being pushed hard is because people have a fear of missing out. Meanwhile, if I were a company I'd be focusing on AR, because at least there you can push for enterprise customers which won't need the full immersion yet that a general c…

VR is already being used in enterprise. I know of at least one company that is designing VR software(using common headsets like the Vive) for a major restaurant chain, where the managers will be able to arrange everything in 3D before the restaurant is even built.

We are, of course, already arranging everything in 3D before a restaurant is even built. That's what architecture is. But being able to actually understand the spatial feel of a space is an absolute game-changer, both for the design process and especially for communicating design decisions to clients.

VR is unquestionably going to be ubiquitous in the architecture industry before the year is out.