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Diversity and Inclusion at GitHub

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Re: Diversity and Inclusion at GitHub

#161

Post by Ranebow6 »

paloaltokid wrote: post #150
e40 wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just the other day I read a comment on HN, I think, about how in Mexico there is racial stratification between light and dark-skinned people, and how they even have different ways of speaking. The point was that people can tell immediately which class you are in and act accordingly. So, yeah, I think this is a (bad) feature of humans everywhere, not just the US.

An Indian colleague of mine told me that she felt it was the same in India with respect to the caste system (she was born a Brahmin). She said she could tell from the way people spoke what caste they were from. When I hear folks from India talk about the caste system, it sounds very similar to how people in the US talk about racism against blacks.

Skin whitening products are sold in India and advertised on television. https://www.fairandlovely.in/

Re: Diversity and Inclusion at GitHub

#165

Post by PlainsWight »

cb18 wrote: post #157
zyxley wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The United States is the only place I have seen where people invest a considerable amount of time and resources just to put people from minor groups or specific genders in pedestals just to please other people. It's not "just to please other people"; it's to attempt to counteract the institutionalized discrimination against minorities that exists throughout the country. Studies have shown[1] that, for example, peop…

"Institutional racism,"(has it undergone re-branding as "institutionalized discrimination"?) is this vague, boogey-man term used as an explanation of last resort to explain the "achievement gap," among other divergences between the races. The thing is, there is tenuous evidence at best for "institutional racism," and in nowhere near the quantity that would be needed to account for all of its supposed effects. Indeed…

Please enlighten the rest of us with what the more plausible explanations are.

Re: Diversity and Inclusion at GitHub

#166

Post by braythwayt »

cb18 wrote: post #157
zyxley wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The United States is the only place I have seen where people invest a considerable amount of time and resources just to put people from minor groups or specific genders in pedestals just to please other people. It's not "just to please other people"; it's to attempt to counteract the institutionalized discrimination against minorities that exists throughout the country. Studies have shown[1] that, for example, peop…

"Institutional racism,"(has it undergone re-branding as "institutionalized discrimination"?) is this vague, boogey-man term used as an explanation of last resort to explain the "achievement gap," among other divergences between the races. The thing is, there is tenuous evidence at best for "institutional racism," and in nowhere near the quantity that would be needed to account for all of its supposed effects. Indeed…

"Institutional racism,” also “Systemic racism,” is not a vague, bogeyman term, it has a specific and objective meaning. It can be measured and has been measured, repeatedly.

In almost every area of American life, there are measurable effects. Blacks are more likely to be arrested than whites for the same crimes. They are more likely to be sent to prison and to get longer prison sentences given the same criminal records and the same circumstances.

As is often quoted, resumes with black-sounding names get far fewer calls for interviews than resumes with white-sounding names.

These are facts, and on Hacker News we prize facts. As it is so often put when talking about things like creationism, “You are entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts.”

---

What I am finding more and more is a certain type of rhetoric, I will call it “Racism Denial.” It works just like Creationism Denial and Climate Change Denial. The denialist does not approach these discussions with any good faith attempt to discuss the issues or to weigh the factors on display.

The denialist has an agenda, and the agenda is to derail progress, to disrupt any and all attempts to fix what ails the system.

This is because the denialist fears that change will hurt them personally. The creationist denies evolution, because accepting evolution means turning away from the creationist God, which means letting go of the religious fervour that they have adopted as a core part of their identity.

The climate change denier denies climate change because accepting climate change means another step towards ending certain industries and jobs. They fear the loss of their income, the dissolution and decay of their coal mining town, the loss of jobs making gasoline-powered cars and a transfer of economic wealth to places like California where they make clean electric cars.

So let me ask you: What do you personally fear from people nodding and saying “Yes, there is systemic racism in America?” What do you think you will lose? What bad things will happen to you and to America if people stop pretending there is a problem and stop blaming blacks for everything that happens to them?

Why are you trying so hard to pretend there’s nothing going on?

Re: Diversity and Inclusion at GitHub

#167

Post by resu_nimda »

johnnyg wrote: post #56

"There are no Black/African-American GitHubbers in management positions, which is unacceptable." It is only unacceptable if people with the skills to be in management positions didn't get a promotion because of a non-relevant personal attribute. Otherwise, it is acceptable and in the best long term interests of the company. I acknowledge that America has equality of opportunity problems. There are strong and just his…

Otherwise, it is acceptable and in the best long term interests of the company.

Maybe the best long-term interests of the company aren't aligned with the best long-term interests of our society. If, hypothetically, the market took over, and drove racial equality/diversity in a direction such that we almost literally ended up with a white male overclass and everyone else their servants/slaves, would you shrug and say "well clearly white males are just better for the long term interests of the companies"? Or would you wonder if there were maybe some non-market-based factors at play...

"The market" doesn't magically solve all problems. It's not a simple matter of companies making non-discriminatory hiring decisions. As of now, the average white candidate probably is more qualified than the minority candidate, because of a complex web of social factors and experiences tracing back to birth. So they would always get selected by "the market," creating a feedback loop leading to the scenario I described.

The market is definitely not going to provide equality of opportunity. If that's something we care about, we have to actively push things that direction.

Re: Diversity and Inclusion at GitHub

#168

Post by jayroh »

paloaltokid wrote: post #149
guessmyname wrote: post #12

This blog post reads to me like the Pokemon motto "Gotta Catch 'Em All". Being non-american (I'm from a South American country) it is hard for me to understand the importance giving to these things associated to racism and sexism. The United States is the only place I have seen where people invest a considerable amount of time and resources just to put people from minor groups or specific genders in pedestals just to…

> You will (probably) never see such thing in Latin American because no one cares why color your skin is or what gender you identify with in order to get a specific job. Are you aware that Brazil, the largest South American country, imported more slaves than anyone else? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Brazil I find it extremely hard to believe that racism does not exist in Latin or South America.

I'm an American born to a Brazilian father and American mother and I can confirm that racism is more than alive and well down there.

At least where the paternal half of my family is from (the northeast)

Re: Diversity and Inclusion at GitHub

#169

Post by Aaron1011 »

MustardTiger wrote: post #106
drhayes9 wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think GH is starting from the point of "the distribution of our employees doesn't line up with the larger population of the country we operate in". If you think each of those groups of people has the potential to be as talented as any other, then why is there a discrepancy? I think they're saying, "We don't think the market is working." There are hidden biases at work. For example, people with "non-white sounding"…

>If you think each of those groups of people has the potential to be as talented as any other, then why is there a discrepancy? Because you think wrong. >Given the starting point of "all these groups of people have the same capacity for talent and skill" Why take something we know to be false as your starting point though?

What evidence do you have that "we know this to be false"?

Re: Diversity and Inclusion at GitHub

#170

Post by vacri »

advantark wrote: post #63
guessmyname wrote: post #12

This blog post reads to me like the Pokemon motto "Gotta Catch 'Em All". Being non-american (I'm from a South American country) it is hard for me to understand the importance giving to these things associated to racism and sexism. The United States is the only place I have seen where people invest a considerable amount of time and resources just to put people from minor groups or specific genders in pedestals just to…

I have never heard a good argument explaining how affirmative action is good for a company or society outside of college.

If South Africa hadn't mandated that companies have a certain percentage of blacks in senior positions, then the economic and political power still would have been heavily lopsided towards the white minority after apartheid ended. Things aren't golden and fantastic there now, but it's still more equitable than it would have been without that affirmative action.
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