Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Magic mushrooms found to lift severe depression in clinical trial

theguardian.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

161–170 of 173 posts

Re: Magic mushrooms found to lift severe depression in clinical trial

#161

Post by joslin01 »

Voltage wrote: post #145
joslin01 wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's true. I tell all my friends / family if you're going to do mushrooms for the first time, do them with me. I've seen the worst of trips and only my experience in knowing "I'm just high" kept me stable. Newcomers can't call on this experience so readily and will undoubtedly think they're the special exception that is going to die. I also have more advice for newcomer shroomers: one thought can spiral downward or u…

"I also have more advice for newcomer shroomers: one thought can spiral downward or upward. Try your best to stay optimistic and open to the experience." I agree that thoughts can spiral out of control, which is to some degree what depression is for me. Trying to stay optimistic and open is a standard day when I'm having a low period.

This is just a general truth, but is more sensitively felt while tripping on mushrooms. Yes, depression has roots in your thoughts. It is your own value system that has de-valued yourself, and you accordingly feel the results. Remember I said adults cling to petty judgments -- even about themselves. Don't let yourself be your #1 enemy in your thoughts is the best advice I can give.

More generally, it's easier to hate than love in this world. Why is that? What purpose does it serve? Why are thoughts utilized this way? Understanding this is like a key to which you will unlock the gate to your true happiness. Yet be sure not to slip to temptation and justify attack or hatred. The same thoughts that project hatred or attack upon others will be used against oneself as both sword & shield (you will attack yourself for [x] and also start to become defensive about [x]).

Re: Magic mushrooms found to lift severe depression in clinical trial

#162

Post by tim333 »

zimbu668 wrote: post #17
exelius wrote: post #2

From personal experience in my youth, I can definitely say that psychedelics (mushrooms in particular) can help you think in different ways that make your problems seem trivial and imminently solvable. Those changed patterns of thought seem like a revelation at the time -- like the clouds opened and an answer came down from the sky. So I'm not at all surprised with this. That said, this study had only 12 participants…

Roland Griffiths at John's Hopkins is trying to do proper research on psilocybin, i.e. with control groups. Although it's kind of hard since the effects of psilocybin are rather noticeable. http://www.tedmed.com/speakers/show?id=526372 Just in case anyone here hasn't already seen this: https://xkcd.com/1462/

You could say you were testing drugs for depression and give one group psilocybin and the other something like prozac rather than sugar pills.

Re: Magic mushrooms found to lift severe depression in clinical trial

#163

Post by exelius »

harry8 wrote: post #151
exelius wrote: post #2

From personal experience in my youth, I can definitely say that psychedelics (mushrooms in particular) can help you think in different ways that make your problems seem trivial and imminently solvable. Those changed patterns of thought seem like a revelation at the time -- like the clouds opened and an answer came down from the sky. So I'm not at all surprised with this. That said, this study had only 12 participants…

Here's a thing I don't understand - no control group. Surely we've been trying to treat people with severe, long term depression by other means and not had success. This surely wasn't the first treatment that these people tried in trying to treat their long-term misery. How are both of those things taken together not as good as a control group that allows you to draw meaningful conclusions. It really sounds to me (al…

That's why it's a canary study. Sure, it looks good, which means it's worth spending the money on a larger study. And yeah, there are lots of people with severe long-term depression, so find some of them, measure their mood over the same time period, and make absolutely sure that the effects you're ascribing to the substance you're testing aren't caused by something else.

You always need a control group because you can't control for every externality over the exact time period the study was conducted. Maybe the weather was especially nice for those 3 months and the control group feels happier as well? We need a way to quantify the results and be able to answer those questions.

Always be careful with the conclusions you draw from studies without control groups. Small studies without control groups are very cheap to run, so you can run the same study 15 times and only report on it when you get the results you're looking for. Not saying that's what happened here, but we have to apply the same standards of proof to all drug studies or else they don't mean anything. The purpose of this study was likely not to prove "hallucinogens can cure depression" but rather "mushrooms are potentially effective and don't appear to have any glaring safety issues".

Re: Magic mushrooms found to lift severe depression in clinical trial

#164

Post by t4ngent »

joslin01 wrote: post #160
t4ngent wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you might want to refer to the manual sections on tolerance and gentleness for a good exposition on why this kind of proselytizing is counter-productive =)

Excuse me? You think I'm proselytizing? My words echo Truth, which I have voluntarily shared to help all who read it. It has nothing to do with religion nor did I even bring one up. You are merely be defensive against the greater Truth, and your ego is smug in its defense. I walk the holy path that only healers walk -- what path do you take? Smug dismissals that offer nothing of value? What path is that a part of?

Proselytizing need not be linked to religion, you are promoting a thought system (one that I agree with, for what its worth).

Forgive me if I came off as dismissive, that was not the intention. I only meant to suggest that there may be a better way to accomplish your goal, one which is more subtle and gentle.

Re: Magic mushrooms found to lift severe depression in clinical trial

#165

Post by mancerayder »

tonyarkles wrote: post #129
zimbu668 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Roland Griffiths at John's Hopkins is trying to do proper research on psilocybin, i.e. with control groups. Although it's kind of hard since the effects of psilocybin are rather noticeable. http://www.tedmed.com/speakers/show?id=526372 Just in case anyone here hasn't already seen this: https://xkcd.com/1462/

I forget which interview I was listening to about doing LSD research but I remember the gist of the quote: "We tried doing double-blind studies, but 15 minutes into the experiment we realized it was pointless. The people who were given LSD... they knew they'd been given the real stuff, the scientists knew very obviously who'd been given the real stuff... There's no way to give someone LSD and not have everyone in the…

That's a very interesting problem. I wonder if one solution to the 'control group' is for the control to be an alternative intoxicant (i.e. not another psychedelic).

Re: Magic mushrooms found to lift severe depression in clinical trial

#166

Post by joslin01 »

t4ngent wrote: post #164
joslin01 wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Excuse me? You think I'm proselytizing? My words echo Truth, which I have voluntarily shared to help all who read it. It has nothing to do with religion nor did I even bring one up. You are merely be defensive against the greater Truth, and your ego is smug in its defense. I walk the holy path that only healers walk -- what path do you take? Smug dismissals that offer nothing of value? What path is that a part of?

Proselytizing need not be linked to religion, you are promoting a thought system (one that I agree with, for what its worth). Forgive me if I came off as dismissive, that was not the intention. I only meant to suggest that there may be a better way to accomplish your goal, one which is more subtle and gentle.

Oh my mistake -- were you referring to a manual for teachers? You know what I speak of?

Tolerance and gentleness are not absent in my message. However, it's bound to be misunderstood if it comes across as if I am tacitly attacking religions and promoting my own unique one (the connotation I would say proselytizing has behind it). I'm not because there's no point in this kind of behavior. Truth will always be true, and the journey toward it is going to be unique for each individual but the destination will always remain the same.

If you do know what I speak of, you will also have learned that ideas only increase by sharing and that learning necessarily involves teaching. You are potentially misrepresenting tolerance as acceptance; the two are not one in the same. There is only one truth, but that does not mean you accept falsehoods out of tolerance. It means you tolerate them in your perfect forgiveness, which does not judge. I have no idea how my message could be construed as not gentle, but tip-toeing around what it is you truly believe out of fear of offending others is not the definition of gentleness. God has ordained my mission and that was just something that came to me to write -- it probably took me 5m because I didn't have to do much thinking. I only wish the best for everyone and the +8 upvotes meant it clearly resonated with a few people. This is enough for now and certainly does not backfire on my purpose here.

Re: Magic mushrooms found to lift severe depression in clinical trial

#167

Post by exelius »

Torgo wrote: post #117
jjawssd wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely agree with this as I am in the same boat! But what people in their 30s really mean is they are unable to relax because they have so many more obligations and problems on their mind. But believe me -- this problem is remedied by hanging out with good, positive people you trust and removing yourself from a stressful environment.

Nah, for me it's an admission that some things are now harder or impossible to reverse course on. You can't reverse time, and making dramatic changes to your life after you're settled with people depending on you has the potential to upset a lot more lives than your own.

I dunno, I think psychedelics can actually help you accept that fact and rid yourself of any nagging "what if?" questions (i.e. mid-life crisis scenarios, etc). For most people, they're more likely to confirm your sense of identity than challenge it. They're great for helping you rid yourself of your insecurities.

Re: Magic mushrooms found to lift severe depression in clinical trial

#168

Post by qb45 »

t4ngent wrote: post #155
joslin01 wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll definitely hit you up on that -- I got friends in LA. Yep meditation is yet another form of strengthening the resolution within yourself that you have power over your mind. Psychedelics show you this insofar as your effects are felt almost immediately -- this is why I said your thoughts can spiral up or down. Negative feelings must be taken responsibility for with one self and that is all. Even if you were burni…

you might want to refer to the manual sections on tolerance and gentleness for a good exposition on why this kind of proselytizing is counter-productive =)

... while you might want to consult the section on minding your own business and not caring whether you convert anyone or whether anyone cares at all =)

The only proselytizers that get on my nerves are those desperate to be agreed with. It makes we wonder - what do they want of me?

Re: Magic mushrooms found to lift severe depression in clinical trial

#169

Post by stevedekorte »

zimbu668 wrote: post #17
exelius wrote: post #2

From personal experience in my youth, I can definitely say that psychedelics (mushrooms in particular) can help you think in different ways that make your problems seem trivial and imminently solvable. Those changed patterns of thought seem like a revelation at the time -- like the clouds opened and an answer came down from the sky. So I'm not at all surprised with this. That said, this study had only 12 participants…

Roland Griffiths at John's Hopkins is trying to do proper research on psilocybin, i.e. with control groups. Although it's kind of hard since the effects of psilocybin are rather noticeable. http://www.tedmed.com/speakers/show?id=526372 Just in case anyone here hasn't already seen this: https://xkcd.com/1462/

Microdosing may remove the "rather noticeable" side effects while producing a similar reduction of anxiety/depression.

Re: Magic mushrooms found to lift severe depression in clinical trial

#170

Post by pasbesoin »

darreld wrote: post #143
pasbesoin wrote: post #124

More anecdote leaning towards truth that my friends were self-medicating and not simply "doing something bad." I am now, well into middle age, firmly in the camp that I missed out, due to fear, propaganda, and mis-information. And that my life might have been much better if I had not bought so heavily into that message and instead had "experimented". Trust your observations; not blind authority. Anyway... I'm current…

I agree with you completely. When I was young I smoked a lot of weed but was afraid of LSD and mushrooms. Now that I'm nearing 60 I feel that I definitely missed out. Since dealing with pretty bad anxiety from, I assume, extreme stress at work for decades, I'm ready to try mushrooms and, in the right setting, LSD. My problem is availability.

Except for one minor contact high at a party, I never even experienced weed.

I have a friend who had strikingly similar experiences as a child. She quit school for a while and got high daily -- mostly weed, as I understand it. About the age of 21 or 22, she got herself back into school and now has a very successful professional career.

Drugs may indeed destroy some people. But, the messaging is far too simple -- and simplistic.

And, those people often are not helped. They are simply castigated and ostracized.

I don't mean, at all, to make light of such circumstances. And, I have currently been helping someone -- help to the tune of dozens of hours per week and hundreds of miles driven, and hundreds of dollars -- who came darned close to being lost, herself.

I'd still trade my life for hers. She's lived hers -- mistakes and all.

Post reply on HN