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Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

bbc.com

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Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

#161

Post by knodi123 »

emodendroket wrote: post #68
danielvf wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gleaning was more about allowing the poor to have inefficient access to the raw materials that with hard work could be made into food. Taking prepared food from a merchant would have still been a crime. For example "People do not despise a thief if he steals to satisfy his appetite when he is hungry, but if he is caught, he will pay esevenfold; he will give all the goods of his house."

I'm not sure that the ancient Israelites had many places you could go get "prepared food," but the Bible also says you should leave behind grapes for the poor which clearly do not need preparation. e: Previously I claimed that olives don't need preparation which is false. Sorry.

> olives for the poor which clearly do not need preparation

Olives cannot be eaten raw.

Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

#162

Post by kome »

elcapitan wrote: post #111
garyrob wrote: post #30

It's a little hard to understand how this ruling won't cause a certain degree of chaos. Can any hungry, homeless person now steal food from any store in Italy without repercussion? Certainly as a matter of compassion, this ruling can be argued as being reasonable, but how can it work as a practical matter?

I think there is a fundamental difference between different law systems - I'm assuming Italy is roman-style civil law, while you are probably expecting Anglo-Saxon style common law. This means that that case is not setting a precedent, it is merely ruling that the particular case is not going to be penalized.

ditto!

Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

#164

Post by luso_brazilian »

stronglikedan wrote: post #133

I'm apparently in the minority, but, after reading the article, I still maintain that there is never a reason to steal from your fellow man. The potential for abuse due to hunger being subjective notwithstanding, there are social programs in place to accommodate the needy. Do they not have these programs in Italy? I am a very compassionate, empathetic (to a fault) person, but I just don't see the justification for th…

Some context from the article:

> Judges overturned a theft conviction against Roman Ostriakov after he stole cheese and sausages worth €4.07 (£3; $4.50) from a supermarket.

> Mr Ostriakov, a homeless man of Ukrainian background, had taken the food "in the face of the immediate and essential need for nourishment", the court of cassation decided.

> Therefore it was not a crime, it said.

(...)

> In 2015, Mr Ostriakov was convicted of theft and sentenced to six months in jail and a €100 fine.

Italian judicial system "does not try anybody by a jury of peers: everyone is judged by professional judges or by a panel of judges" [1]. Thus, the compassion reserved to the jury of peers (in the form of Jury Nullification) in systems like the american one would be absent from the Italian one if not for actions like the one by this judge.

Not going to enter in the merit of the cause itself (as it's very subjective and personal experience can affect the judgement) but I agree that the judicial system can and must apply discretion in its judgements.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Code_of_Criminal_Proce...

Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

#165

Post by talmand »

peterwwillis wrote: post #124
talmand wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Its prices were also among the highest for any food store, so i'm sure they still did well) I'm sure their prices could have been lower if they didn't have up to 15% shrinkage as well.

Could have been lower, but they'd just pour that money into opening more store locations. They're currently the largest employee-owned supermarket chain in the USA and they only operate in a couple states.

>> Could have been lower...

Yes, that's what I said.

I find it interesting that in one sentence you admit something with no proof is not a given but the other part with no proof, that supports your negativity towards this store, IS a given.

Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

#166

Post by celticninja »

gedrap wrote: post #62
celticninja wrote: post #5

Seems reasonable. Not like he was nicking razor blades and booze just some necessities. Shame it had to go so far but hopefully it will prevent similar court action or arrests in future.

So, if you are proved to be poor or hungry (whatever that means), does it give you a green light to steal? Maybe, let's say, steal 10 times a day from 10 different shops, and resell the goods for half the price and use the money for something else? I mean that's a lovely headline and all, but in startups lingo, it doesn't scale.

Sure if someone wants to go to that effort they could, but be honest those people are stealing right now, this isn't going to drive a whole new group of individuals to go and steal food. Its like that law in one of the South American countries that breaking out of jail itself is not a crime because of our desire to be free, in the same way stealing food in the face of hunger and starvation is just an expression of our instinct to survive.

Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

#167

Post by celticninja »

gedrap wrote: post #62
celticninja wrote: post #5

Seems reasonable. Not like he was nicking razor blades and booze just some necessities. Shame it had to go so far but hopefully it will prevent similar court action or arrests in future.

So, if you are proved to be poor or hungry (whatever that means), does it give you a green light to steal? Maybe, let's say, steal 10 times a day from 10 different shops, and resell the goods for half the price and use the money for something else? I mean that's a lovely headline and all, but in startups lingo, it doesn't scale.

Sure if someone wants to go to that effort they could, but be honest those people are stealing right now, this isn't going to drive a whole new group of individuals to go and steal food. Its like that law in one of the South American countries that breaking out of jail itself is not a crime because of our desire to be free, in the same way stealing food in the face of hunger and starvation is just an expression of our instinct to survive.

Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

#168

Post by celticninja »

sageikosa wrote: post #136
gedrap wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, if you are proved to be poor or hungry (whatever that means), does it give you a green light to steal? Maybe, let's say, steal 10 times a day from 10 different shops, and resell the goods for half the price and use the money for something else? I mean that's a lovely headline and all, but in startups lingo, it doesn't scale.

Carrying capacity has no place in the calculation of the value of need.

Not sure what you are trying to say.

Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

#169

Post by dimino »

stronglikedan wrote: post #133

I'm apparently in the minority, but, after reading the article, I still maintain that there is never a reason to steal from your fellow man. The potential for abuse due to hunger being subjective notwithstanding, there are social programs in place to accommodate the needy. Do they not have these programs in Italy? I am a very compassionate, empathetic (to a fault) person, but I just don't see the justification for th…

Agreed -- I think we should, as neediness increases, lower the penalties per a judge's discretion, but I don't think we should ever completely eliminate the criminal aspect of theft.

There is room in a justice system to convict a person of a crime without punishing that person in any meaningful way.

Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

#170

Post by talmand »

halomru wrote: post #86
vtail wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you say in which countries?

From memory I think Germany is one of those countries. It's not what some people imagine, though: when you break out of jail you will still be wanted for your original crime, and when caught have to continue your sentence. And while the act of breaking out isn't punishable by itself, theft, property damage, assault etc committed in order to break out is still punishable. The human desire to be free is acknowledged an…

Is the act of avoiding the authorities while being a wanted fugitive not illegal in Germany?
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