Climate-Related Death of Coral Around World Alarms Scientists • Hacker News Board

Re: Climate-Related Death of Coral Around World Alarms Scientists

#161

Post by x5n1 » Sun, Apr 10, 2016, 9:55 PM UTC

indlebe wrote: post #159

x5n1 wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stop participating in the economy as much as possible. Learn to live a subsistence lifestyle. Move to the second or third world and learn how to live like the third world in a very small amount of space consuming the least amount of resources necessary to live. You can do it. Also don't have any children. While you do this the capitalists will be trying to move all the 3rd world people to the 1st world lifestyle. Jus…

The fact that this is down voted shows what an elephant in the room this really is.

This sort of thinking that you have the power to make a change is a religious belief and a control mechanism our society has to prevent revolutions and evolution. You want change, it will have to be revolutionary with completely different economic logic than that which is the basis of our society. Short of that any action is a drop in the ocean of economic policy, human psychology, desire, consumerism, etc. The various forces that make us produce and consume at greater and greater levels and at greater and greater speed with reckless abandon to pretty much anything else. At best we pay lip service to these things the same way kids do to their parents when they know they're not doing right but enjoy doing it, stuff like sex.

Re: Climate-Related Death of Coral Around World Alarms Scientists

#162

Post by hacker42 » Sun, Apr 10, 2016, 10:11 PM UTC

Gedrovits wrote: post #144

First of all, don't give up too easy. It's a lot easier to say: we are screwed, my contribution will not change anything. This is wrong approach to the problem, changes start from somewhere. Imagine the startup, who don't have customers yet and just gives up (because what's point, they will not come). The more traction they have, the more snowballish it become. How regular people can help? 1) Try to use renewable mat…

I think the only way out is political top-down decisions rather than mental shifts. Habits are just too strong and the competitive disadvantage of frugality just too inconvenient for most of our primate brains. Environmentalism and passive-aggressively oppressing of habits via high moral self-standards is too easily strawmanned or misinterpreted as ideology by the mobs. -- The most ignorant win.

The largest impact will be by China, India and Africa, so we'll quickly need to popularize green energy such as solar and perhaps the kinds of nuclear technology which can't be used for weapons (nuclear waste might be preferable over damages caused by pollution and climate change).

We need to be decisive and strong, which might involve bold and expensive media events and populism.

The ones who are able to think in the long term need to stop fighting themselves for superficial issues, political correctness and minor details. We need to strengthen our arguments instead and keep in mind that we are following the same ultimate goal.

Re: Climate-Related Death of Coral Around World Alarms Scientists

#163

Post by draw_down » Sun, Apr 10, 2016, 10:30 PM UTC

kinkywizard wrote: post #67

How alarmed are they exactly? Oh my God Oh my God We are all going to die alarmed I have bad feeling about this alarmed Or Hm how odd alarmed

The philosopher Slavoj Zizek often re-tells this joke:

> There is an (apocryphal, for sure) anecdote about the exchange of telegrams between German and Austrian army headquarters in the middle of the First World War: the Germans sent the message "Here, on our part of the front, the situation is serious, but not catastrophic," to which the Austrians replied "Here, the situation is catastrophic, but not serious."

His point is that this is the situation we find ourselves in today: ecologically and socially, the world is falling apart. We can see the catastrophe coming but we don't take it seriously.

Re: Climate-Related Death of Coral Around World Alarms Scientists

#164

Post by indlebe » Sun, Apr 10, 2016, 11:01 PM UTC

x5n1 wrote: post #161

indlebe wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that this is down voted shows what an elephant in the room this really is.

This sort of thinking that you have the power to make a change is a religious belief and a control mechanism our society has to prevent revolutions and evolution. You want change, it will have to be revolutionary with completely different economic logic than that which is the basis of our society. Short of that any action is a drop in the ocean of economic policy, human psychology, desire, consumerism, etc. The vario…

You've lost me towards the end. However I disagree with your opener. If you change your habits and appear to lead a happier, more satisfying life others will notice this and adopt similar habits. A sort-of reverse keeping up with the joneses.

Re: Climate-Related Death of Coral Around World Alarms Scientists

#165

Post by rwallace » Sun, Apr 10, 2016, 11:43 PM UTC

guscost wrote: post #19

When discussing environmental stuff, often activists will say that I "deny climate change". I understand what they mean (that I don't believe the risk of catastrophic anthropogenic climate change is grave enough to demand government intervention) but I still have to point out that we live on a rocky planet in space, where everything including the climate constantly changes. You might be alarmed by a very specific cha…

Nobody is suggesting that it's either necessary or possible for the climate to never change at all, even slightly. The point being made is that climate change of too large a magnitude, occurring too quickly, is damaging, potentially even catastrophic, so we need to mitigate the change in order to mitigate the damage.

Re: Climate-Related Death of Coral Around World Alarms Scientists

#166

Post by deciplex » Mon, Apr 11, 2016, 1:50 AM UTC

lostcolony wrote: post #127

downandout wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>in a genuinely neutral sense Asking if someone supports politicians that claim to be eco-conscious while raising campaign money, who are almost universally left-leaning, is far from "neutral". There are places on the Internet to espouse political support for either side. This, however, is not one of them.

Wait wait wait. Someone proposed the rhetorical question of "what politicians do you support" as one of the "ways you can affect climate change". The poster is not saying "You should vote (in a particular way)", nor even generalizing what positions the respective parties take, just that voting affects climate policy, which affects climate. The poster literally only said "the way you vote affects the way climate is ha…

You can talk about voting out politicians who endorse the TPP, or for that matter who want to wreck encryption and crater the economy, because these things have broad bipartisan support and so the only way to reverse that is to vote out everyone.

Talk of tearing the whole system down or whatever is totally acceptable, even if (or maybe precisely because) it's probably also unrealistic. However once a subject comes up where one group is basically wrong, it becomes a lot more difficult to talk about in a forum like this because some folks actually do have to justify their voting habits in the context of e.g. climate change, instead of all of us just kind of posting at each other "those politicians eh?" all day and getting very little actually done.

When it comes to a lot of tech issues, pretty much everyone in Washington is fucking awful and we can find consensus on that (with a few notable exceptions that show up in every thread to concern troll everyone else - not going to name names). However there is only one party in the US right now that is broadly sticking its fingers in its ears and screaming that climate change isn't happening.

Re: Climate-Related Death of Coral Around World Alarms Scientists

#167

Post by eggy » Mon, Apr 11, 2016, 2:02 AM UTC

eggy wrote: post #39

xfactor973 wrote: post #32

I planted about 50 fruit trees and bushes when I moved into my new place. I also converted the electric to 100% renewable. Other than dumping my natural gas heater I'm not sure what's left that I can do to help reduce climate change.

I don't want to offend you, I've lived differently than I do now, but just brainstorming here: sounds like a big piece of property to be able to plant that much. Go minimal to your comfort level. I am not talking a yurt here on 1/10th of an acre, but minimalism can be very rewarding in today's super-size culture.

Not sure I understand the negative, sensitive downvotes to my comment; I was being sincere and careful with a prefatory remark. I grew up in Brooklyn below the poverty line, within a small space, had kids, moved to rural NJ, and lived in a moderate-sized house. I now live in East Java, Indonesia, have been vegetarian for over two years, and started a way of dealing with recycling and management of trash here, as well as an informal outdoor class for 9 to 11 year olds. All of my stuff is in an 8ft x 12ft room that I share with my wife and one-year old baby girl. It's minimalism is compensated by the fact that I can just walk outside. More than half of the houses around me have dirt floors, and their combined electric usage is less than that of one of my friend and his family's household. The reply was to somebody who seemed to really want to know some options, and I gave him one, that I also live by. It's anonymous downvotes without explanation like this, or the seemingly sensitivity-policing of people on this forum that make me think first-world problems are just that.

Re: Climate-Related Death of Coral Around World Alarms Scientists

#168

Post by eggy » Mon, Apr 11, 2016, 2:13 AM UTC

ageofwant wrote: post #71

eggy wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read the book Guesstimation 2.0 by Lawrence Weinstein a few years ago, and it had this breakdown. This is not addressing any other fact than how much time people spend worrying about the wrong thing, thinking emotionally rather than rationally or mathematically: "Paper or Plastic? How many plastic bags does the US use in one year? 10 bags per grocery store trip x 2 trips per week x 52 weeks per year = 1000 bags per…

I commented meaning to address plastic pollution and its direct affect on the biosphere. China's pollution may destroy 98% of foo species, America's plastic may push foo to extinction. I agree that focus are many times misdirected and ineffective, but that's no reason not to try.

The comment was not to negate the impact of plastic bags; it was to illustrate, and I think very much in line with the evidence, of how we misappropriate our attention. The suburban family who pauses at checkout to decide plastic or paper has good intentions, but misplaced intellect. They should be looking at the gas used to and from the store, imported food purchases vs. locally grown, and their own household for energy-efficiency. Yes, plastic, and paper for that matter, are a reasonable item on the list, but the others outweigh it by magnitudes, and the common person thinks 'paper or plastic?'.

Re: Climate-Related Death of Coral Around World Alarms Scientists

#169

Post by Joof » Mon, Apr 11, 2016, 2:27 AM UTC

hacker42 wrote: post #162

Gedrovits wrote: post #144

First of all, don't give up too easy. It's a lot easier to say: we are screwed, my contribution will not change anything. This is wrong approach to the problem, changes start from somewhere. Imagine the startup, who don't have customers yet and just gives up (because what's point, they will not come). The more traction they have, the more snowballish it become. How regular people can help? 1) Try to use renewable mat…

I think the only way out is political top-down decisions rather than mental shifts. Habits are just too strong and the competitive disadvantage of frugality just too inconvenient for most of our primate brains. Environmentalism and passive-aggressively oppressing of habits via high moral self-standards is too easily strawmanned or misinterpreted as ideology by the mobs. -- The most ignorant win. The largest impact wi…

One way to influence politics is to spread the culture of being habitually green. The big gains may all be political or require extensive city design, but changing the mindset to 'people want green; and superficial won't cut it' is a big part of making that happen.

Do I want to give up my car? No. What if I did want to; how would that change my outlook? I'd want cities and a job that accommodates those desires. What if everyone wanted to? Those cities would be built and politics might make cars more restricted.

Re: Climate-Related Death of Coral Around World Alarms Scientists

#170

Post by hsitz » Mon, Apr 11, 2016, 3:45 AM UTC

downandout wrote: post #118

hsitz wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which politician is more likely to take steps helpful for climate change: (a) one who "claims" to be eco-conscious, or (b) one who thinks climate change is a hoax? Are you seriously telling me that a person who wants to do what they can for climate change should consider candidates (a) and (b) as equivalent, so far as climate change is concerned? Boggles my mind.

This is more political commentary, and the point of my comment was that this isn't the place for that. Also there are an infinite number of viewpoints on this subject in between those you outlined.

I'm not commenting pro or con on any politician. What I'm saying is that, _if_ someone wants to do what they can to fight climate change, voting for politicians who share their goals would be one thing they could do that would help. And it is, actually, a pretty important thing. That's just common sense.