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Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

nytimes.com

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Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#161

Post by gkya »

tremon wrote: post #154
gkya wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Erdogan is not an idiot for trying to censor German press. He does know that that won't ever happen because he wanted. But most the voters of his party will be excited to see him shouting at the Germany, the US, etc. This is not that obvious to the opposition. I came to know some supporters only recently, and boy, they have arousals when the guy acts like this. I'm a Turkish citizen BTW. And see, criticism of Erdogan…

criticism of Erdogan is not really forbidden. Criticism in its every form is forbidden, if you're powerful enough So it really is forbidden, just not enforced until you actually start making an impact?

The figure of Ataturk and the Turkish national identitiy are immune to any pejorative terms de jure. The rest is forbidden de facto, that is, if you are strong enough, you can try to silence the opposition with lawsuits for hate speech, public insulting, and treason, and laws for detention can be abused to keep them at lenght in prison. See the recent Can Dundar-Ekrem Gul case for treason and publication of statal secrets.

So it's mostly an abuse of the law via installed judges and misuse of the constitution. The parliamenters are immune to lawsuits during their duty, so it's easier for them to act so.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#162

Post by nl »

studentrob wrote: post #146
gkya wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Take Erdogan as a businessman instead of a political figure. Because that's what he does. Since when he started his political career, even before the AKP days, he and his family prospered to an incredible level. That's all the care, and the support comes from the businessmen trying to get some benefit out of the business. So the case of Turkey is the case of a group that fruits the state's resources for enrichment of…

> Take Erdogan as a businessman instead of a political figure The US is strong in the business world because they endure differing opinions! Astute businessmen can see how limiting free speech limits their own success. Good businessmen do not surround themselves with yes-men. When you limit free speech of a country, you cut off most of your people from certain intelligence. You could argue the intelligence agency has…

It's probably worth noting that I don't think @gkya is supporting Erdogan. He is merely pointing out that his actions in attempting to censor foreign media have motives which aren't obvious.

When one looks at his actions in the light of those motives his actions make a lot of sense. Without those motives his actions appear stupid.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#163

Post by stale2002 »

gkya wrote: post #123
studentrob wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Erdogan is not an idiot for trying to censor German press It hurts your country's ability to leverage foreign minds when you begin to censor the outside world. Plus, with the internet, censorship becomes really impractical. China and North Korea don't do this completely successfully and they spend a lot of effort to keep their citizens on some form of lock down. So not only do you end up missing out on the collecti…

Take Erdogan as a businessman instead of a political figure. Because that's what he does. Since when he started his political career, even before the AKP days, he and his family prospered to an incredible level. That's all the care, and the support comes from the businessmen trying to get some benefit out of the business. So the case of Turkey is the case of a group that fruits the state's resources for enrichment of…

The whole inciting violence question is pretty clear.

If someone says "everybody, let's go kill this person or group of people on Saturday at Noon". THAT, is inciting violence.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#164

Post by jessaustin »

gkya wrote: post #157
studentrob wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Take Erdogan as a businessman instead of a political figure The US is strong in the business world because they endure differing opinions! Astute businessmen can see how limiting free speech limits their own success. Good businessmen do not surround themselves with yes-men. When you limit free speech of a country, you cut off most of your people from certain intelligence. You could argue the intelligence agency has…

> You're not allowed to yell fire in a crowded theater. Come on mate, I thought we're talking about political speech :) With regards to Erdogan as a businessman, the thing is, he is using his position to prosper as a rich man. I repeat, he has no care about what happens to the country. There are no ideologies, no nothing here. He uses the state as a means to cash in what he can. And he has his circle of assistants et…

So he's basically a Ba'athist? That's parsimonious. I think this is the ground state for modern governments. To get anything more than Ba'athism takes a lot of work by a lot of people.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#165

Post by trco »

morgante wrote: post #121
ousta wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you can deny holocaust in many european countries...

But you can't get arrested for saying it happened in any European countries.

In France you can get imprisoned for holocaust denial. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_against_Holocaust_denial

Art 9. – As an amendment to Article 24 of the law of July 29, 1881 on the freedom of the press, article 24 (a) is as follows written: <<Art. 24 (a). - those who have disputed the existence of one or more crimes against humanity such as they are defined by Article 6 of the statute of the international tribunal military annexed in the agreement of London of August 8, 1945 and which were a carried out either by the members of an organization declared criminal pursuant to Article 9 of the aforementioned statute, or by a person found guilty such crimes by a French or international jurisdiction shall be punished by one month to one year's imprisonment or a fine.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#166

Post by stale2002 »

gkya wrote: post #153
hartator wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Freedom of speech does not mean irresponsible and banale flow of whatever one thinks. Actually, it is. Freedom of speech can't be whatever seems civil to each person, it's a binary issue. Either you have it or you don't. For example, France, which seems freer than Turkey, actually just fined a comedian that have insulted the prime minister of half retarded Musolinni. That's not okay and it's not fundamentaly differ…

Quoting my grandparent comment: > In the end, though, this should be left to the authors will, to decide whether or not it is moral to say what he says. Because when state is involved the slightest, it can be involved more. Who decides what incites violence? So to this I agree: > Actually, it is. Freedom of speech can't be whatever seems civil to each person, it's a binary issue. Either you have it or you don't. What…

"One cannot say anything and go by."

Yes you CAN. Nobody has a right not to be offended. You don't have to be mindful of what you say. That's not freedom of speech.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#167

Post by jessaustin »

Tomte wrote: post #158
hartator wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Freedom of speech does not mean irresponsible and banale flow of whatever one thinks. Actually, it is. Freedom of speech can't be whatever seems civil to each person, it's a binary issue. Either you have it or you don't. For example, France, which seems freer than Turkey, actually just fined a comedian that have insulted the prime minister of half retarded Musolinni. That's not okay and it's not fundamentaly differ…

That's the predominant American view, which is pretty... extremist. Sure, "free speech exactly like in the US" is a binary issue. Free speech, as sensibly construed, is a whole spectrum.

We have lots of problems, but "extremist" speech ain't one of them.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#168

Post by aburan28 »

Turkey is literally the United State's worse ally of the last quarter of a century besides Saudi Arabia. If it weren't for the geo-strategical importance and a base for US tactical nukes Turkey would be 3rd world if the US stopped it's unconditional support of Turkey's shenanigans

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#169

Post by morgante »

trco wrote: post #165
morgante wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you can't get arrested for saying it happened in any European countries.

In France you can get imprisoned for holocaust denial. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_against_Holocaust_denial Art 9. – As an amendment to Article 24 of the law of July 29, 1881 on the freedom of the press, article 24 (a) is as follows written: <<Art. 24 (a). - those who have disputed the existence of one or more crimes against humanity such as they are defined by Article 6 of the statute of the internationa…

While I don't agree with that law, it's the opposite of what I was talking about.

In Turkey you literally can't admit that a genocide happened.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#170

Post by egeozcan »

dracht wrote: post #156
egeozcan wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you are suggesting that they have it in their genes? Such a wonderful way to approach immigrants. /s Also, same arguments have been brought up against Turkish, Romanian and many other large group of immigrant in other countries. It also has a name: Racism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_cau...

>So you are suggesting that they have it in their genes? Don't put words in my mouth, I said no such thing. You offered no rebuttal to what I said, only slander. Explain to me why Moroccan immigrants have not assimilated and why they are so grossly overrepresented when it comes to crime. To say this is all the result of the natives being racist towards Moroccans in particular, that they are forced into this bad behav…

> Explain to me why Moroccan immigrants have not assimilated and why they are so grossly overrepresented when it comes to crime.

Here, you are implying something. Why don't you just tell it?

> Don't put words in my mouth

I'm just asking, as I can't think anything else on their side that would put them systematically at fault here, which you suggest is the case.

> To say this is all the result of the natives being racist towards Moroccans in particular, that they are forced into this bad behaviour by us, is absolutely ridiculous.

I really don't understand. I bet you are a nice person, and I really like the Dutch culture - people seem to be really nice over there but there's a problem which applies to people of specific race in your country and you try to deny the blame. Why? Who else can you blame? It's like hearing some people in my country say "you know, I like Kurds and all, but most of the terrorists are Kurdish. There are many minorities in Turkey but only Kurds have so much problems." Do you understand what's wrong with those sentences?

Maybe you really have no bad intentions but didn't really anyone tell you that what can be deduced from your words ends up being racist?

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