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Tell HN: AngelList told my employer that I'd updated my profile

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Re: Tell HN: AngelList told my employer that I'd updated my profile

#161
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is that the specific criteria defining what is criminal can include whether or not there is consent. A contract can establish consent. E.g. if I go into your house without permission and take stuff, then it is theft. If I have a contract saying that I have permission to go into your house and take stuff, then it is not. I have not contracted my away from something illegal. The contract has established conse…

Yes, but consent is not something that can be universally declared in a credible manner. There are things that remain illegal even after you have consented to them. For instance, having sex with someone below the age of consent is illegal even if they have consented to it (the idea being, of course, that they may be coerced into expressing that consent). > All jurisdictions I'm aware of (not a lawyer) have the concep…

> There are things that remain illegal even after you have consented to them.

Yes, I pointed that out.

> They do, but things are not as simple as "can act on your behalf with consent"

I believe that was exactly the point I was making.

> Around here, for instance (but I'm in Europe), they can only act on your behalf if:

While I'm sure you're right for your location, "Europe" encompasses not only ~50 distinct legal systems, but also half a dozen or so distinct legal traditions (with e.g. Common law, Germanic law, Napoleonic law and Roman law as the biggest traditions), which is one of the reasons I specifically pointed out that it varies greatly how clear one has to be about whether or not something is signed by an agent.

Worldwide it gets even more complicated.

To be very clear: I agree that some places the agent will need to specifically sign and state their own name and specify they are acting as an agent. Exactly in line with the examples I gave, a couple of which are from Europe.

In others they can stamp or use a machine to "fake" the name of the person they are acting on behalf of -- as long as they have that persons consent to do so.

In the US we have perhaps one of the most famous examples of the latter: The office of the US President frequently uses an Autopen [1] to sign documents on behalf of the president, such as autographs or letters to constituents. The purpose of it is to duplicate the signature precisely, making actual pen strokes in order to make the signature seem more authentic than e.g. the use of a stamp or seal.

But US presidents have used it for much more important things than letters and autographs, including several times that Obama has had staffers use an Autopen to sign laws on his behalf.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autopen

Re: Tell HN: AngelList told my employer that I'd updated my profile

#162

When our CEO added me to our angel list account, I recieved this email from them: Hi [My Name], I'm building an AngelList profile for [our company] and need your help. Can you do me a favor and confirm that you're a team member by clicking here: https://angel.co/l/[shortlink] To prove that you're the real [My Name] you will be asked to create an account if you don't already have one. This is important to us; confirmi…

I got that message a while back and up until this moment had genuinely believed that was a message from our CEO.

I did too!

I can understand why they do it, but it seems like a very hill-climby optimization.

This was basically my first interaction with them and it engendered a lack of trust in their product.

I filled out the minimum amount of info in my account and don't intend to use them much going forward, mainly given how creepy I found this interaction.

edit: phrasing

Re: Tell HN: AngelList told my employer that I'd updated my profile

#163
post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But in your example, the act in question would be sex - which is not itself a criminal act.

Impersonating someone isn't a criminal act either. It is impersonating someone without consent that is the criminal act. Read the statute: "...any person who knowingly AND WITHOUT CONSENT credibly impersonates another actual person..." (Emphasis added.)

Elvis impersonators.....

Re: Tell HN: AngelList told my employer that I'd updated my profile

#164
post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course it can. Lack of consent is a key element in many crimes. Rape, for example.

This is not an appropriate analogy. You are reversing the situation. Terms and conditions and even contracts are often inadmissible. Just because you signed something, doesn't mean it's valid. Being handcuffed to a contract happens only in the movies, I am not a lawyer.

One can argue over whether Angellist's ToS constituted valid consent. But the original blanket claim that an action "can't be magically made OK by a contract" is just flat-out false. It can.

Re: Tell HN: AngelList told my employer that I'd updated my profile

#165

Hi there, I’m Dave and I work at AngelList on our Talent platform. Please accept our sincere apologies for what happened here. Sending an email without giving you a heads-up or control over its content was wrong. Here’s what we’re doing to fix it: * We’ve made it clearer that tagging a company on a project may notify them by email. * We’ve revised the project tagging email to clarify that it’s automatically generated…

Giving your email address apparently is useless. People on this thread are saying you don't ever respond to emails. Just search:

> Their support is absolutely non-existent. I heard nothing back from them whatsoever, after sending several emails.

Re: Tell HN: AngelList told my employer that I'd updated my profile

#166
post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Impersonating someone isn't a criminal act either. It is impersonating someone without consent that is the criminal act. Read the statute: "...any person who knowingly AND WITHOUT CONSENT credibly impersonates another actual person..." (Emphasis added.)

Elvis impersonators.....

Another element of the criminal statute is that the impersonation has to be "credible".

Re: Tell HN: AngelList told my employer that I'd updated my profile

#167
post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not an appropriate analogy. You are reversing the situation. Terms and conditions and even contracts are often inadmissible. Just because you signed something, doesn't mean it's valid. Being handcuffed to a contract happens only in the movies, I am not a lawyer.

One can argue over whether Angellist's ToS constituted valid consent. But the original blanket claim that an action "can't be magically made OK by a contract" is just flat-out false. It can.

It can in some circumstances. If the action is illegal in the first place, no contract can make it OK.

Re: Tell HN: AngelList told my employer that I'd updated my profile

#168

Hi there, I’m Dave and I work at AngelList on our Talent platform. Please accept our sincere apologies for what happened here. Sending an email without giving you a heads-up or control over its content was wrong. Here’s what we’re doing to fix it: * We’ve made it clearer that tagging a company on a project may notify them by email. * We’ve revised the project tagging email to clarify that it’s automatically generated…

> We’ve made it clearer that tagging a company on a project may notify them by email.

The correct answer was

> The interface now yells loudly when a change would notify anyone but yourself, with the option not to send that notification.

When doing a thing spams other people, we stop doing the thing.

Re: Tell HN: AngelList told my employer that I'd updated my profile

#169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I'm sorry" is an apology. "Please accept our apologies" is a reference to an apology.

Seriously? The whole post is an apology. A guy named Dave is publicly saying he screwed up. He's saying his name, he's wrapping his identity up in this screw up, he's giving reasoning into their decision and what they're doing to fix it, and he's providing ways to give suggestions to fix this. But this isn't good enough to you because literally the words "I'm" and "sorry" weren't next to each other? If he didn't take…

I think people are angry because they consider the impersonation to be dishonest, whereas Dave and Angel list seem to think the grievance is not about being spammy but rather about not being open about the spammy practice.

I think his point was that this is a non-apology in his eyes because it doesn't say "were going to stop this practice, but rather just make it clearer to users what they will do.

In other words, the apology is for the grievance of stabbing you in the back, so now were going to stab you to your face.

Note, I don't share this concern but I certainly get where he is coming from... The semantic argument he made was just a manifestation of the frustration of what he considers a non-apology.

Re: Tell HN: AngelList told my employer that I'd updated my profile

#170

Hi there, I’m Dave and I work at AngelList on our Talent platform. Please accept our sincere apologies for what happened here. Sending an email without giving you a heads-up or control over its content was wrong. Here’s what we’re doing to fix it: * We’ve made it clearer that tagging a company on a project may notify them by email. * We’ve revised the project tagging email to clarify that it’s automatically generated…

Here's an idea: turn off ALL notifications by default. Make any notifications opt-in only.
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