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Encryption, Privacy Are Larger Issues Than Fighting Terrorism

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Re: Encryption, Privacy Are Larger Issues Than Fighting Terrorism

#161
post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have a link to that? Because I know a guy who really needs to counterpoint it. High-security engineer, Clive Robinson, always said security is about physics if you look at it down to the hardware. The physics try to connect things in ways you didn't see coming. That allows unauthorized communications. The physics also try to corrupt the operation of your chips. That compromises computational security mechanism…

Security != encryption in every case. What you're describing is actually also what makes encryption stronger/easier than decryption: A priori there's only 1 correct plaintext, while there are limitless chipertexts of any given plain text (assuming arbitrary IV lengths and key). You can't change that and this is basically what makes encryption so much stronger than decryption.

Only two sentences were about encryption. The others mainly covered the foundations, like kernels or MMU's, encryption depends on or can be bypassed with. You should look up TEMPEST Level 1 safes, PC's, peripherals, and rooms. That's just EMSEC part tgat requires all thst because physics fights us. Then, look up NSA Type 1 hardware and physical separation with Red/Black model to see how you start on endpoints. Rad-hard and fault-tolerant circuitry too where you'll see probabilities instead of certainties.

Add it all up to say that, outside a few products, your security mechanisms from CPU go crypto arent secure. Physics and intrinsic complexity work together to ensure this. Systems fighting all of it have less features, are heavy, more manual steps, less battery life, and cost several times more. Economics takes over there where physics leaves off.

"A priori there's only 1 correct plaintext, while there are limitless chipertexts of any given plain text (assuming arbitrary IV lengths and key)."

A priori there's electrical signals going through analog and digital circuitry that implements a form of it with malicious hardware, software, or networks connected to it. There's tons of ways to intercept or leak those secrets. These are not in the formal model of crypto. Once included, the picture changes considerably and leans my way.

Re: Encryption, Privacy Are Larger Issues Than Fighting Terrorism

#162
post #8
post #2

> No, David. If I were in the job now, I would have simply told the FBI to call Fort Meade, the headquarters of the National Security Agency, and NSA would have solved this problem for them. They're not as interested in solving the problem as they are in getting a legal precedent. That's quite the quote, especially given his history of employment. The weirdest thing about this whole cell-phone saga to me is that the…

> the perps are dead, did not appear to be part of some organized group A reasonable reason for inquiry here is to actually try to make sure if they were part of some organized group. "Appear not to be" is not quite enough. This is a valid reason to investigate even if they are dead. How did they get radicalized, etc. Not that it is a good enough reason to enforce breaking of encryption in the way proposed, but in a…

> "Appear not to be" is not quite enough.

It has to be, because there is no perfect. Everything is a numbers game between ever-more unlikely hypothetical evidence that might yield a valuable unknown, and the cost of collecting it.

By such completist thinking, we should examine every image and video in the world because they might show up in the background of a birthday party video or vacation selfie, giving us another clue. Similarly, we should interview everyone in cities they've been known to be in...

But in reality, unlike in a game or a movie, there is no 100% complete. The phone isn't one of a finite list of clues to examine whereby you will know everything you need to know. By fixating on the phone, or any few issues, you miss the larger point.

There's very little likelihood of learning anything of value here, and are far richer leads elsewhere.

This is just our security industry grandstanding for more money.

Re: Encryption, Privacy Are Larger Issues Than Fighting Terrorism

#163
post #134
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>and better for the economically-worst-off, Not that I disagree with this, but how is this supposed to help entrepreneurs? If anything, it will just increase the tax burden of running a business.

You're not going to be a very successful entrepreneur if your customers are broke.

You can't create wealth out of thin air. The government can't make people un-broke without someone else paying for it. Either you're losing money to taxes or some of your customer base is losing to taxes. Either way, no benefit (unless your company targets the poor in particular).

Re: Encryption, Privacy Are Larger Issues Than Fighting Terrorism

#164
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like the country is 50-50 divided on this. But more importantly, individual liberty is more important than majority rule. When the founding fathers created this country, they cared deeply about individual liberty, and worried about a tyranny of the majority. Even if a super-majority wants to deprive an individual or a minority group of its rights, they should not be allowed to. A free country's first commitm…

"50/50 divided" means "nobody knows"

That's the one-testicle, one-breast, average-person fallacy.

There's more than one issue concurrently, and many people are actually dumb and wrong.

Re: Encryption, Privacy Are Larger Issues Than Fighting Terrorism

#165
post #155
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>and better for the economically-worst-off, Not that I disagree with this, but how is this supposed to help entrepreneurs? If anything, it will just increase the tax burden of running a business.

I'm wondering how myopia is going to help anything, including running a business. EDIT: I find it somewhat irritating that this needs to be stated, but helping the economically disadvantaged doesn't mean just raising taxes and giving everyone a welfare check. The narrative has been so well framed. It could (and should IMO) mean creating a more just economic system while providing a real safety net. Ultimately, this w…

Your response was neither useful nor insightful.

>It could (and should IMO) mean creating a more just economic system

What exactly does this mean? Don't just give me platitudes about better education.

Re: Encryption, Privacy Are Larger Issues Than Fighting Terrorism

#166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well that is up to Apple, they don't have to make one phone. They could make a US version and a rest of the world version.

And if the FBI wanted to open a rest of the world version? Or another government wanted to open a US version?

> Or another government wanted to open a US version?

There's a good point. And who knows what limits they'd go to, to force Apple's hand? (Kidnapping, etc.)

Apple is really only safe if they actually can't break their own encryption. Anything less makes them a target.

Re: Encryption, Privacy Are Larger Issues Than Fighting Terrorism

#167
post #120
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>and better for the economically-worst-off, Not that I disagree with this, but how is this supposed to help entrepreneurs? If anything, it will just increase the tax burden of running a business.

If you do stuff like building infrastructure, creating efficient health care systems (because you can do stuff for all the people lowering the price and having a bigger positive effect on overall health) you actually make it better for startups, cause they can use the infrastructure, need to pay lower wages (because health care and infrastructure are cheaper/taken care of). If you use tax money on education you also…

All good points. Thanks for the well-reasoned response.

Re: Encryption, Privacy Are Larger Issues Than Fighting Terrorism

#168
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The moment you mention "child pornography" as justification I consider that you have lost the argument. This is simply Godwin's Law for the modern era.

Why is that? If certain tales of the dark net are to be believed, it has enabled an unprecedented level of communication between abusers of children. Seems like an obvious "con" of widely-available secure communication. If you believe the "pros" outweigh it, say so, but don't pretend it isn't relevant.

Because the story is essentially a lie. The numbers, and the financial complicity, and the crypto-capabilities. There's no pedo-mafia.

Also that and there are so many more successful ways to catch molestation that we aren't taking.

It's not that molestation and exploitation isn't bad, but when you see someone ranting about it you can be pretty sure they're just doing it to push a political goal. It's an obvious call for censorship and more agency funding.

If the list of relevant things could only be five-thousand items long, this wouldn't even be on it.

And then we get to the cons, many of which are potentially Orwellian.

Re: Encryption, Privacy Are Larger Issues Than Fighting Terrorism

#169
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also a horribly counter-productive argument. This is obviously a politically charged subject, but let's try to be rational for a moment. It seems likely that by far the most prolific creators of child pornography today are... children. What today's parent and grandparent generations used to do in relative privacy behind the metaphorical bike shed, surely today's teenagers are doing with their phones and laptops,…

While I agree that privacy and secure communications are the best means to protect kids in the first world, there are still enough horrible people in the world who rape children and take pictures, as well, there is child sex trafficking. We shouldn't forget that these things exist and reduce child porn to snapchat and selfies.

> there are still enough horrible people in the world who [emotion instead of substance]

What's the evidence that we need [abusive bill of the day] to fix that?

Why do we think the potential harm averted is greater than the harm we know comes from overreaching laws and abusive governments?

Human trafficking at all, sex or otherwise, is horrible, common, and relatively easily stopped without new laws - at least for the victims of the moment - so go spend time and effort helping rather than beating the panic drum as you are now.

Re: Encryption, Privacy Are Larger Issues Than Fighting Terrorism

#170
post #82

Before you comment, please consider whether you'd prefer to vent your frustration in online message boards with like-minded people, or spend that potential energy in other ways: "What you can do about it: -- You can contact the Obama White House online to comment on strong encryption. https://www.whitehouse.gov/webform/share-your-thoughts-onstr... -- You can contact your state Senators and Representatives via the con…

Also signup for https://www.internetdefenseleague.org/
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