Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

blog.codinghorror.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

161–170 of 373 posts

Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#161

Post by monkmartinez »

maxaf wrote: post #127

> The most significant shift we’ve made is requiring every final candidate to work with us for three to eight weeks on a contract basis. Are you fucking kidding me? What am I going to tell my current employer while I "audition" for the mere possibility of a next job? Most working adults in the US don't even get three to eight weeks of discretionary vacation that they aren't already using to spend time with family or,…

This sounds like a Police, Fire, and/or Military hiring process.

For example; The test to get hired with my fire department was 2 hours long. 1800+ people took the test: 400 passed.

Then you have to pass a Physical test: 250 passed.

Then there are two formal interviews: 150 passed.

Then the final selection of 50.

After the selection, the candidate is required to pass a 22 week academy. The attrition rate in the academy is roughly 30%

So out of the 50 that start the academy ~35 graduate.

Then you are on probation for 1 full year, where maybe 5 or so are fired for various reasons. That is, once you get past the interviews, the real training and evaluation begins. There is no guarantee that you will have a job until you complete probation.

Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#162

Post by rdtsc »

qmalzp wrote: post #145
dominotw wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So its basically extended interview for like 8 weeks where your every move is being watched/judged. When did it become ok to treat people like shit and humiliate them with these ridiculous "interviews". Seems like we keep coming up one worse idea after another. Shame on everyone who thinks its ok to humiliate people with your idiotic algorithm/whiteboard/big O interviews. This is getting so out of hand. Can we bring…

Am I the only person who thinks algorithmic/big O puzzles are kind of fun? Like they're super high stress when you're interviewing, but basically everything is super high stress when you're interviewing.

> Am I the only person who thinks algorithmic/big O puzzles are kind of fun?

They are fun. So company ends with a lot of people who can implement red-black trees and so on, especially under high stress. That could be good in some case. I can't see it that good in general.

"So customer reports server keeps restarting every Thursday, can you take a look?"

"I am not sure how to do it, but I can invert a binary tree in under 10 minutes though, would you like to see that?"

Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#163

Post by potatolicious »

maxaf wrote: post #127

> The most significant shift we’ve made is requiring every final candidate to work with us for three to eight weeks on a contract basis. Are you fucking kidding me? What am I going to tell my current employer while I "audition" for the mere possibility of a next job? Most working adults in the US don't even get three to eight weeks of discretionary vacation that they aren't already using to spend time with family or,…

This strategy seems like it would effectively choose the best candidates out of the pool labeled "desperate people".

It mostly categorically excludes anyone who has market desirability and doesn't have to put up with it.

I suppose it could work in parts of the country/world where the supply of engineers vastly exceeds the number of jobs, but it likely fails spectacularly in anything resembling a tech hub.

This strikes me as the stronger/more extreme version of take-home interview projects, which while being good at filtering for quality, also simultaneously selects only for people who are willing/forced to put up with it.

I suppose if your strategy is "hire the best of the desperates", this works for you.

Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#164

Post by kimdouglasmason »

artursapek wrote: post #125
sandworm101 wrote: post #17

There is no "the best". There are only people. Some people work wonderfully at one shop, but horribly at another. This can have nothing to do with their skill or even their personality. Each working environment is unique as is each candidate. You simply cannot tell which will work perfectly until long after someone is properly hired. So why bother interviewing? The goal is not "we only hire the best". Hiring is only…

> Or do what most startups do. Pay next to nothing. Treat everyone like widgets in a great machine. Fire only those whose admit having a life outside of work. And hire only those who share similar opinions on ultimate frisbee because culture! What happened that makes you this bitter?

I would suggest that he observed reality.

Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#165

Post by rokhayakebe »

ska wrote: post #88
struppi wrote: post #33

Also: Give the "not-the-best" people a chance to develop. The CEO of one of my past clients, a consulting company, always said: "You can teach everyone to be a great programmer". And he put his money where his mouth was: He hired people with no programming experience (even with no university education) and personally trained them for several months . Also, senior people in the company were encouraged to also help the…

"You can teach everyone to be a great programmer" You really can't - but it doesn't matter. This has nothing to do with programming specifically. You can train most people to do most tasks. With a modicum of natural inclination, competent. With a bit of interest, good. With a willingness to work hard, very good. However, you can't ever train greatness. You can't make it by any method - only they can. Your broader poi…

Since there will never be a consensus on the definition of "great programmer" you really cannot argue this point.

Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#166

Post by andrewstuart »

ryandrake wrote: post #61

This fear of not hiring the very best explains why everyone in the Valley seems to be interviewing candidates like crazy but nobody is hiring. When I interview I try to tease out potential, and look for signals that show the candidate will work hard and learn fast. Then someone comes in and says, "Well I hazed him and he couldn't implement a red-black tree on a whiteboard. No hire." This mad pickiness causes the myth…

"Work hard and learn fast" this is spot on.

Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#167

Post by maxaf »

MajorLOL wrote: post #156

>Those of us who have families simply can not afford to do this. Then don't take the job? Your life choices (Children, wife, loan payments) aren't the fault or social responsibility of your prospective employer. Why get so uppity about a job you aren't even going to apply for?

Excluding senior candidates with actual work experience will result in a rapid, irreversible and extremely destructive economic crash.

Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#168

Post by akerro »

dominotw wrote: post #131
maxaf wrote: post #127

> The most significant shift we’ve made is requiring every final candidate to work with us for three to eight weeks on a contract basis. Are you fucking kidding me? What am I going to tell my current employer while I "audition" for the mere possibility of a next job? Most working adults in the US don't even get three to eight weeks of discretionary vacation that they aren't already using to spend time with family or,…

So its basically extended interview for like 8 weeks where your every move is being watched/judged. When did it become ok to treat people like shit and humiliate them with these ridiculous "interviews". Seems like we keep coming up one worse idea after another. Shame on everyone who thinks its ok to humiliate people with your idiotic algorithm/whiteboard/big O interviews. This is getting so out of hand. Can we bring…

Offense is taken, not given. I can't see where is that humiliation you're talking about. I would take such interview with smile. I think it's good idea. Why don't you?

Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#169

Post by stuxnet79 »

cableshaft wrote: post #77
bdavisx wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, me too, midwest huge insurance company. From what I've seen, there are very few people in mid to upper management that think developers are anything more than a cog in the machine (and only 1 who's ever stated that 'publicly') - I'm looking to leave after 11 years - I've given up on it changing.

I tried the midwest large insurance company job, and it was not a fun experience. I often had full weeks where I was waiting on something from other slow-moving departments and had literally nothing to do, and my boss knew and didn't really care, although I still had to show up and sit in my desk for eight hours a day. And I was a developer but had to ask permission and make a case for every single program I wanted t…

> The atmosphere was also the most subdued environment I've ever been in. Most people not talking to or acknowledging each other unless their cubes were near, very few jokes, I almost got the feeling I'd get in trouble if I ever showed exuberance.

I know exactly what you mean! It is suffocating! Currently struggling with this right now. I can't stand it because it just feels so fake and phony. To me work is easier and more manageable when you are getting along with colleagues, not when it is overly formal, and corporate, etc.

Idk, that's just my perspective.

Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#170

Post by darryl42 »

monkmartinez wrote: post #161
maxaf wrote: post #127

> The most significant shift we’ve made is requiring every final candidate to work with us for three to eight weeks on a contract basis. Are you fucking kidding me? What am I going to tell my current employer while I "audition" for the mere possibility of a next job? Most working adults in the US don't even get three to eight weeks of discretionary vacation that they aren't already using to spend time with family or,…

This sounds like a Police, Fire, and/or Military hiring process. For example; The test to get hired with my fire department was 2 hours long. 1800+ people took the test: 400 passed. Then you have to pass a Physical test: 250 passed. Then there are two formal interviews: 150 passed. Then the final selection of 50. After the selection, the candidate is required to pass a 22 week academy. The attrition rate in the acade…

And if you move between cities or switch fire halls you are back to writing the the test?

This is the equivalent of getting into the school you want, not a job interview.

Post reply on HN